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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

785 replies

nhd · 15/12/2023 15:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

OP posts:
MrsSkylerWhite · 16/12/2023 11:59

Since when has baking been a girls’ activity. Our grandson loves to bake.

Mischance · 16/12/2023 12:00

Feminism is about giving women choice. You have made your choice to be a SAHM; just as your DD has about what she likes to do. She knows football is there, she knows she could go but she chooses to bake. She is a true feminist making her own choices. Good on her!

And tell your SIL to butt out!

VanityDiesHard · 16/12/2023 12:02

Mischance · 16/12/2023 12:00

Feminism is about giving women choice. You have made your choice to be a SAHM; just as your DD has about what she likes to do. She knows football is there, she knows she could go but she chooses to bake. She is a true feminist making her own choices. Good on her!

And tell your SIL to butt out!

This 10000%.

Pickledprawn · 16/12/2023 12:21

@VanityDiesHard people dismiss make up as being an art because it's a stereotypically female thing to do so it is laughed at as being silly and frivolous (like many female things). Of course it's an art not everyone can do it well it takes skill to create beautiful make up.

nhd · 16/12/2023 12:23

MissBuffyAnneSummers · 16/12/2023 11:34

@VanityDiesHard

I think that's just your interpretation / spin on it but it's certainly not reflected in the wording shared by the OP.

Okay so imagine that the post was about my DS who was showing his baking creation to his aunty only for her to dismiss it and suggest he goes to football with Daddy. Is that okay? Or is it undermining his interests? Why should it be different just because she's a girl? Feminism, equality, ... no?

Or on the other hand imagine if she'd gone to football and told aunty, who responded with "you know, you could just stay home and bake?" but that's so 1950s, how dare she dismiss football as a hobby, let the niece enjoy what she enioys... or is it because traditionally girly hobbies are worse and should be seen as less?

OP posts:
VanityDiesHard · 16/12/2023 12:27

nhd · 16/12/2023 12:23

Okay so imagine that the post was about my DS who was showing his baking creation to his aunty only for her to dismiss it and suggest he goes to football with Daddy. Is that okay? Or is it undermining his interests? Why should it be different just because she's a girl? Feminism, equality, ... no?

Or on the other hand imagine if she'd gone to football and told aunty, who responded with "you know, you could just stay home and bake?" but that's so 1950s, how dare she dismiss football as a hobby, let the niece enjoy what she enioys... or is it because traditionally girly hobbies are worse and should be seen as less?

I completely agree with you. You've been getting a tough time on this thread because people haven't really thought the issue through properly. They just agree with your SIL without realising the full implications of her words.

Mirabai · 16/12/2023 12:44

nhd · 16/12/2023 12:23

Okay so imagine that the post was about my DS who was showing his baking creation to his aunty only for her to dismiss it and suggest he goes to football with Daddy. Is that okay? Or is it undermining his interests? Why should it be different just because she's a girl? Feminism, equality, ... no?

Or on the other hand imagine if she'd gone to football and told aunty, who responded with "you know, you could just stay home and bake?" but that's so 1950s, how dare she dismiss football as a hobby, let the niece enjoy what she enioys... or is it because traditionally girly hobbies are worse and should be seen as less?

That’s a false equivalence then issue is about conforming vs no conforming to gender stereotyping not merely alternatives.

The equiv would be ds going to footie with daddy and SIL saying he could bake with mummy if he wanted to. That’s fine.

nhd · 16/12/2023 12:58

@Mirabai so she shouldn't be allowed to conform to gender stereotypes, if that's what she enjoys, just because it's seen as stereotypically girly and she absolutely must defy those stereotypes?

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 16/12/2023 13:04

"Feminism is about giving women choice."

No it isn't. It's about understanding societal pressures and stereotyping and having the tools to decide. And it's never too young to start gaining those tools. SIL might be a bit over enthusiastic, but better that than reinforcing the stereotype which she is being bombarded with from all sides. Including from her mother!

TornIntoPieces · 16/12/2023 13:22

trickortrickier · 15/12/2023 15:08

Well, I love your SIL and so does your daughter ❤️

^^ this

I agree with the messages but yes she does sound overzealous in the delivery.

I'm like this but my sister is a revert Muslim, some of our views clash. It's good for DD to see different lifestyles within reason and know that both are ok as long as you are safe/loved/respected, and equal - those are my bottom lines.

StarvingMarvin222 · 16/12/2023 13:24

@nhd your SIL sounds like a pain in the arse.
Why didn't she ask her brother why he didn't bring his dd to football.

There's nothing wrong with telling your kids theyre pretty or handsome.
Plus I'd have to say something the next time she says anything about my DD.
There's a time and a place to say something,and I s not when the child is proud of something.

CurlewKate · 16/12/2023 13:26

@nhd "Mirabai so she shouldn't be allowed to conform to gender stereotypes, if that's what she enjoys, just because it's seen as stereotypically girly and she absolutely must defy those stereotypes?"

Of course she should-and shouldn't. But you can't choose unless you understand your options.

Deepf60 · 16/12/2023 13:28

Your SIL is over stepping the mark. No reason at all in any conversation about/ concerning a 3 year old to talk about dating.
Make up is an individual thing, I wear it every day, my daughter used to copy me when she was young. I have friends that never wear it. SIL is pushing her ideals which is wrong. I feel OP has the right to bring up her daughter her way. She has given her daughter lots of choices ( clothes, football to name a couple) Nothing wrong in telling someone they look nice but I also understand it shouldn't be encouraged to make it all about looks and being "pretty". YANBU.

LuckySantangelo35 · 16/12/2023 13:28

@nhd

what exactly are you worried about Op?

SouthLondonMum22 · 16/12/2023 13:31

VanityDiesHard · 16/12/2023 11:54

Hold up, if there is no such thing as 'man's work' and 'women's work' then why is it unfeminist to be a SAHM? It is just work? I don't think your points add up at all.

Because the vast majority of SAHP’s are female. Because it is the societal expectation that childcare = women.

Loz2323 · 16/12/2023 13:42

Totally agree with Poster on here.

CurlewKate · 16/12/2023 13:44

@VanityDiesHard "VanityDiesHard
Hold up, if there is no such thing as 'man's work' and 'women's work' then why is it unfeminist to be a SAHM? It is just work? I don't think your points add up at all.

Because the vast majority of SAHP’s are female. Because it is the societal expectation that childcare = women."

Also because the word "work" implies remuneration.

JLM1981 · 16/12/2023 13:58

daisybe · 15/12/2023 15:39

Your child, your rules. She's only three so I don't get all these people agreeing with your, quite frankly ott SIL. Shes clearly got her preferences and they happen to be (god forbid) girly. Your daughter is three not thirteen. She'll have plenty of years to learn about empowerment etc. Im not against what your SIL is trying to get across, not at all, I'm all for it, just not to a three year old and not to a kid who is not yours. Its bad enough kids are forced to grow up much faster generation to generation so focus on enjoying her childhood years. She'll show you her personality as she grows and I'm sure if she decides she likes girls, or prefers football etc you'll support her, (and not because shes been indoctrinated into feeling she HAS to because aunt karen kept saying so) You do you.

This.

Genni01 · 16/12/2023 14:03

Edited below

sjfev · 16/12/2023 14:04

I love the things she is telling your daughter and I don't see how they could be harmful in any way. I can understand if you feel like she is stepping on your toes or undermining you but I definitely wouldn't be concerned by what she is saying, those are things I would teach my own daughter on the future. I think it's super, super important for girls (and boys!) To know that looking pretty is not a thing. Beauty comes from the heart, not the face. And the first comment we say on almost a daily basis.. I always say if my son is gay I don't want him to feel like he needs to come out. I want it to be as normal as hom dating a girl and just bring home a guy and be like "hey, this is my boyfriend" and I'll be like "awesome, lovely to meet you, are you staying for dinner?"

Genni01 · 16/12/2023 14:04

nhd · 16/12/2023 12:23

Okay so imagine that the post was about my DS who was showing his baking creation to his aunty only for her to dismiss it and suggest he goes to football with Daddy. Is that okay? Or is it undermining his interests? Why should it be different just because she's a girl? Feminism, equality, ... no?

Or on the other hand imagine if she'd gone to football and told aunty, who responded with "you know, you could just stay home and bake?" but that's so 1950s, how dare she dismiss football as a hobby, let the niece enjoy what she enioys... or is it because traditionally girly hobbies are worse and should be seen as less?

💯 correct. It seems to be your SIL that's making gender stereotypes not you. Carry on letting your DD do whatever activities etc she wants ❤️

jacks11 · 16/12/2023 14:13

I am going against the grain here- I think YANBU. I think her heart may be in the right place but she is actually just putting another form of pressure to conform onto a young child. I don’t think that that behaviour or attitude should be applauded at all. True feminism is about supporting the right to choose for ourselves regarding lifestyle/education/career, relationships, the way we dress etc- and for our choices to be viewed as valid and respected. So if a woman chooses to do something more traditionally ‘feminine’ that should be every bit as valid, valued and respected as those choosing another path.

Your SIL seems to imply that only the non-stereotypical feminine choices (e.g. football instead of baking, not wearing a nice dress) are acceptable ones. It’s a subtle suggestion that what she is doing/wearing is “not right” and traditionally ‘girly”/feminine things are less than/less important/unworthy of her time or consideration. In reality, many 3 year olds (of both genders) would prefer baking with mum to a football match (a match can be quite long for an young child, especially if it’s cold and football has not caught their interest) and lots of little girls like wearing sparkly dresses. And there is not a thing wrong with either of those. It sounds like your SIL is a bit tedious and forthright about her ideas of what feminism is and how she thinks girls/women should behave or dress.

It’s not like OP’s DD was desperate to go to the football but OP forbade it as unbecoming to a girl and told her she must stay at home to bake so the boys could have something nice to eat when they got in from their football match. Suggesting a little girl wear a pretty dress to a special event is really not damaging- suggesting she can ignore her parent’s instructions if she wishes (not at 3 years old, she can’t- and they don’t usually have the ability to distinguish between import vs less important instructions/situations at that age) is undermining OP and has potential to cause issues for the child. Also, children do need to learn to dress appropriately- going out in dirty clothes to an event is not showing respect to your host(s) and is generally viewed as less than socially acceptable- it’s part of learning how to function around others. One instance of SIL overstepping is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, but if kept up and often enough it could be a problem. It’s simply not appropriate for SIL to interfere like that. If it happens again, address it with her directly and ask her to stop.

I also object to the idea that we should not tell our children they are pretty/handsome- obviously, it isn’t the only thing we should tell them or make it into a huge deal, but good lord are we not allowed to say it at all now? I like being told I look nice. I often tell my 15 year old she looks pretty/beautiful/really suits a new hairstyle/colour of dress or top etc. I’m not making her looks the most important aspect about her, I’m paying her a compliment. We have far more discussions about more important things relating to her education, ambitions, hobbies, friendships, current affairs etc- but I still think it’s absolutely fine- possibly even important- to say a child looks attractive (whatever their gender) from time to time, especially if it’s for a special event or they’ve made a specific effort.

I would point out many women do enjoy looking nice- and that can include putting on make up- not for men, but for themselves. Feminism and make up and wanting to look attractive are really not mutually exclusive. I like putting on make-up. I don’t wear a full face of make up day-to-day (though it;s fine if you want to, surely), but I really enjoy it as part of getting ready for going out/for a special occasion. I like looking my best, in clothes that suit me. My dd and her friends enjoy putting on/wearing make-up- they sometimes watch videos about it/practice using it as inspiration, including special effects and “horror” makeup and also what can look like watercolour and actual art using faces/make up- so it can be a form of art, in it’s own way. Even the more day to day “beauty” make-up is something they enjoy. Yet, these same girls are not defined by that or the way they look- people are more than capable of being interested in how they look, whilst not being indoctrinated or oppressed. These girls all have wide interests and have hobbies including playing sports (cross country running, rugby, hockey, eventing, gymnastics and mountain biking); several enjoy outdoor activities like canyoning and rock climbing; some are really into music and singing; one is a talented dancer. They also quite enjoy baking in my kitchen quite frequently- even if they are less keen on tidying up! My daughter spends quite a bit of time covered in mud, in far from “girly clothes”, picking up bruises etc. But still really enjoys getting dressed up in a nice outfit (often a dress) and doing her hair and make-up.

Honestly, I don’t think OP’s actions are reflective of true feminism and I would ask her to take a step back. It sounds like she feels the need to impart her own ideas and correct you every time you say or do something that she doesn’t agree with/has a different take on- it’s really not her place. If she has a real concern she should come out and say it directly, rather than this not so subtle undermining she is currently attempting- perhaps unconsciously.

Crafthead · 16/12/2023 14:14

I love your SIL. She's the auntie I needed growing up when my dad said I wasn't pretty & constantly told me things didn't suit me & led to decades of going out with awful men coz what else was I worth?
Can I take her now?

Skinnyowl · 16/12/2023 14:19

Although I think SIL is right to empower your DD to do anything and look however she likes, she is going about it in a strange way and I definitely think you and/or DH need to have a chat with her about how is appropriate to talk to a 3yo. Particularly regarding going out half dressed as that is not appropriate.
From all your messages I can see you're clearly allowing your daughter to look and do what she likes anyway irrelevant of her gender so there should really be no issue
I can't help wondering if SIL is projecting slightly due to her own upbringing
Is SIL gay?
Was she often encouraged to be 'pretty'?
Was she pushed into hobbies she didn't like because 'its what girls do'?
Could this perhaps have an impact on her desire to have children of her own?
What is the relationship like with MIL for both you and SIL?

ZombieGirl86 · 16/12/2023 15:10

Whether your sister in law is right or not she's your child op. Nothing wrong with the values but I can understand how this might grate when it's in response to anything you say.

In regards to her saying do you want to go out in dirty clothes that's pushing it. I would of asked her not to try parenting your child. Whilst your happy with her values she is being rude in the way she's communicating them.