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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

785 replies

nhd · 15/12/2023 15:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

OP posts:
LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:36

Didimum · 15/12/2023 22:18

If being out of pocket is the leading reason to stop working, then she is doing herself a disservice – it's short sighted and they will be increasingly out of pocket in the long run

Show quote history

OK so I’m not brilliant at Maths but I’m pretty sure you won’t ‘be out of pocket in the long run’ if nursery costs exceed one person’s income. I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

Passingthethyme · 15/12/2023 22:38

I think your SIL comments are very relevant!

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:41

I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

What? Surely you can.

There are many reasons to continue working - and it's equally valid to choose not to.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future. If that's what the individual and family chooses.

Yesididntdothat · 15/12/2023 22:44

I think she sounds like a good alternative role model to have in your dd's life.

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 22:45

BethDuttonsTwin · 15/12/2023 20:08

You’re in an Echo Chamber. You’re fully subscribed to current social trends and as such have surrounded yourself with those who share your views and beliefs.

”I spent my 20s in a large city where people are less hateful”

Where? I’m in London, have been for twenty years and my experience is directly opposite to yours. Everyone I know is rolling their eyes at “Queerness” some are actively offended by having their same sex attraction and love co-opted and labelled thus by Spicy Straights 😁.

I didn’t say there was an “agenda” so I am not sure why that’s in quotation marks? I said there’s huge social currency to be gained from declaring oneself “queer” and that is true. Some have even called this a Social Contagion. I do not mean to suggest this applies to you, you sound older for a start, but it is certainly true among young people and as I have two cynical and eye rolling teenagers and numerous teenagers within my extended family, with lots of mates I feel fairly confident in asserting this.

It’s good that there is increased acceptance around non heteronormativity - I completely applaud it. But it simply isn’t possible to confidently assert as you have, that 20% of people are now and have always been attracted to multiple sexes on the basis of one study and your own anecdotal evidence. Such claims can have no weight when the concept of “Queerness” is so questionable/controversial but holds such value in gaining attention/plaudits for any young person who claims to be such, and when it is clearly, largely social media driven - a pretty recent technology that most of us let our youngsters roam about on completely unsupervised.

Show quote history

Bravo. Though deaf ears and all that.

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:47

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:36

OK so I’m not brilliant at Maths but I’m pretty sure you won’t ‘be out of pocket in the long run’ if nursery costs exceed one person’s income. I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

Show quote history

Because it's temporary. In the long run, nursery costs will stop and earning potential will increase.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 22:49

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:47

Because it's temporary. In the long run, nursery costs will stop and earning potential will increase.

Show quote history

Not always. Not everyone has an annual promotion opportunity

Original poster
nhd · 15/12/2023 22:50

@Didimum & @ other people saying "why is it just the mum's salary that pays childcare" ...

It's the combined salary whoever pays childcare. Look at it this way
Mum earns £1,700
Dad earns £2,000
Nursery costs £1,500
Let's say we subtract nursery costs from the mum's salary that leaves the family with £200 from mum's salary to spend on other family-related expenses (food, mortgage, entertainment, clothes etc). And £2,000 from the dad's salary to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Now let's say mum and dad halve the childcare costs. That leaves £950 from mum's salary to spend on family-related expenses and £1,250 from dad's to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Same thing.

Or do you all expect the dad to go "haha well all your money has been spent on childcare this month, guess you won't eat and you're homeless" ?!

OP posts:
VanityDiesHard · 15/12/2023 22:50

SIL sounds really annoying. It is 2023, we don't have to be told that girls can play football instead of baking. It is rude to undermine a parent who is trying to dress their child. The only one where she has a point is the heteronormativity. But I totally get why you are finding her grating. I used to hang around woke people a lot about ten years ago and they are fecking exhausting. Ain't nobody got time for that.

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 22:50

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:41

I can’t imagine why anyone would continue to work when it costs more to do so

What? Surely you can.

There are many reasons to continue working - and it's equally valid to choose not to.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future. If that's what the individual and family chooses.

But many women will work at a loss, effectively, when they have small DC, requiring childcare. It's not the cost for the woman exclusively though. It's a shared cost with the other parent, and continuing to work is an investment in her career & the longer-term future.

Exactly. We're having twins this time so will have 3 under 2, nursery fees are going to be outrageous but thankfully it won't be forever.

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:53

Holy moly @SouthLondonMum22 that's a busy time ahead - and wonderful too, obviously! Best of luck!

TreacleMines · 15/12/2023 22:55

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 21:34

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Like I've already said, you can still be a feminist but lets not pretend that being a SAHM is a feminist choice.

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Explain to me (preferably in short words because I’m a bit bevvied up) why being a sahm is not a feminist choice? (If you don’t mind!)

CuriousGeorge80 · 15/12/2023 22:58

Your SIL sounds fabulous!

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:58

@nhd

Yes, of course it's the same thing numerically 😂

(And for clarity, I fully support your earlier posts about choice, in terms of working / not working).

But, why the point is made about childcare being a shared cost, is that very often the argument is made that the mum's salary is X amount and childcare is close to being X - so it's not worth it.

But the true discussion needs to be around what works for the entire household financially, as well as individual preferences.

If a woman values her career, and considers staying working is vital to her career development and perhaps her own well-being, both parents need to assess their financial choices jointly, and include the man making choices around reduced hours or shorter working year or whatever might be possible.

There's no right answer except what everyone involved is happy with.

MzHz · 15/12/2023 22:58

Your sil is a thoughtless twat! “ ok enough of the woke-speak love she’s 3.”

VanityDiesHard · 15/12/2023 22:59

CuriousGeorge80 · 15/12/2023 22:58

Your SIL sounds fabulous!

She really doesn't. She sounds like a tedious, virtue signalling bore. That sort of performative wokeness is never about the child and improving their life, it is always about pushing their own agenda.

EarringsandLipstick · 15/12/2023 22:59

Explain to me (preferably in short words because I’m a bit bevvied up) why being a sahm is not a feminist choice? (If you don’t mind!
I love this, especially 'bevvied up' 😂

VanityDiesHard · 15/12/2023 23:00

MzHz · 15/12/2023 22:58

Your sil is a thoughtless twat! “ ok enough of the woke-speak love she’s 3.”

My sentiments exactly. She sounds like a character from some sketch show in the mid aughts.

TreacleMines · 15/12/2023 23:00

housethatbuiltme · 15/12/2023 19:57

I never wear make up day to day (why would I waste time just to do the school run, shopping etc...), barely ever shave (takes ages, irritates my skin and I'm resentful men don't have to but I'm expected too) and never wear a bra.

I feel fuck all need to apologist for looking how I look... I still get dressed up for date nights and events. I do so for ME because occasionally its nice to dress up and feel 'pretty'. Not feeling like a swamp snot when you want a fun night is not 'for men/others'.

My DD is 2 and EXCEPTIONALLY girly, no idea where she gets it from, her favorite game in 'nail salon' and I have never been to one in my life. Don't even know how she discovered doing nails. I'm not going to force her not to be 'girly' though ffs.

If anything her 'girly-ness' is fucking fierce. God forbid you put the pink polkadot sock on instead of the lavender floral one and if she doesn't want to wear it she WON'T (hell or high water couldn't force it on her). The other day I accidentally got her some blue trousers, I was quickly corrected that only pink trousers will do this week. She will be naked, tantruming or in her pink trousers that she picked, nothing else is an option. Trust me she is NOT doing it 'for anyone else'.

I’m with your daughter- lavender floral is clearly superior in every way to pink polka dots .

She sounds like my beloved nieces- basically ace in every way! I tried to put The Wrong Tights on one of them this evening, I thought she might lamp me 😂.

Didimum · 15/12/2023 23:01

nhd · 15/12/2023 22:50

@Didimum & @ other people saying "why is it just the mum's salary that pays childcare" ...

It's the combined salary whoever pays childcare. Look at it this way
Mum earns £1,700
Dad earns £2,000
Nursery costs £1,500
Let's say we subtract nursery costs from the mum's salary that leaves the family with £200 from mum's salary to spend on other family-related expenses (food, mortgage, entertainment, clothes etc). And £2,000 from the dad's salary to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Now let's say mum and dad halve the childcare costs. That leaves £950 from mum's salary to spend on family-related expenses and £1,250 from dad's to spend on family-related expenses. All in all £2,200.
Same thing.

Or do you all expect the dad to go "haha well all your money has been spent on childcare this month, guess you won't eat and you're homeless" ?!

The point is that it’s detrimental to the future earnings of the mother to take an extended career break. It it more likely harmful over all, regardless of the short term high-cost childcare years.

SouthLondonMum22 · 15/12/2023 23:03

TreacleMines · 15/12/2023 22:55

Explain to me (preferably in short words because I’m a bit bevvied up) why being a sahm is not a feminist choice? (If you don’t mind!)

Show quote history

Because it enables inequality within society.
Because it enforces problematic gender stereotypes.
Because it only ever ''makes sense'' for the woman to give up her career.
Because it often leaves women financially vulnerable.

ComputerIsSayingNo · 15/12/2023 23:06

We have a family member whose daughter was bought a makeup table at 3, and a few years later was encouraged with makeup before going out. Really sad.

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 23:08

The only one where she has a point is the heteronormativity.

Heterosexuality is normative because it is the norm - just as well, otherwise the human species would rapidly die out. There is nothing wrong in assuming someone will follow a norm. There is everything wrong with thinking less of people who don't.

CupofTea29 · 15/12/2023 23:09

Your SIL sounds great! Bit confused by ‘very much a feminist’. Being a feminist is about equality, not sure what ‘very much’ means. If you think women and men should be paid the same for doing the same job, congrats, you’re a feminist!

I make similar points to your SIL to my DD, she’s into football because it’s been available to her from a young age. To be honest, giving your DD the choice between two dresses is already presenting a preferred slant on it…why shouldn’t she pick trousers for your event as long as they’re clean which you said was your main point?
I’d love to have your SIL in my daughters life, we have similar friends and godmothers who provide viewpoints such as those your SIL presents and I love that, I’m much the same in outlook. I’d be more concerned by your comments than hers tbh.

Ineedasitdown · 15/12/2023 23:09

Does Sil have any other conversation- she sounds tedious.

Honestly just bring dd up to have a mind of her own and make her voice heard. If she permanently has woke auntie questioning her choices that isn’t healthy either and will undermine her decision making.