To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

[nhd]

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

The messaging from your SIL is fab.

Egs 1 & 4 - I'd be really pleased shed said exactly that

Egs 2 & 3, great message, poorly delivered because they were delivered in a way which seemd to undermine you / be a dig. I'd have to say something but would think carefully about tone and words to make sure she understood where I was coming from and get board with it, while not taking offence

I am with SIL tbh.

I never wear make up day to day (why would I waste time just to do the school run, shopping etc...), barely ever shave (takes ages, irritates my skin and I'm resentful men don't have to but I'm expected too) and never wear a bra.

I feel fuck all need to apologist for looking how I look... I still get dressed up for date nights and events. I do so for ME because occasionally its nice to dress up and feel 'pretty'. Not feeling like a swamp snot when you want a fun night is not 'for men/others'.

My DD is 2 and EXCEPTIONALLY girly, no idea where she gets it from, her favorite game in 'nail salon' and I have never been to one in my life. Don't even know how she discovered doing nails. I'm not going to force her not to be 'girly' though ffs.

If anything her 'girly-ness' is fucking fierce. God forbid you put the pink polkadot sock on instead of the lavender floral one and if she doesn't want to wear it she WON'T (hell or high water couldn't force it on her). The other day I accidentally got her some blue trousers, I was quickly corrected that only pink trousers will do this week. She will be naked, tantruming or in her pink trousers that she picked, nothing else is an option. Trust me she is NOT doing it 'for anyone else'.

I’m with your SIL, and I think from your comments you could take a leaf out of her book.

So why not let her enjoy what she enjoys without bringing her gender into it?

Because you appear to be forgetting (or not aware) how girls and boys are socialised and the barrage of indirect influence they receive throughout the day from media, other adults, other children etc. It seems you are saying that unless it’s obvious, then it’s not harmful and/or influential, which is not the case. Children need to hear things quite explicitly to have any chance of combatting these indirect influences.

The football is a very good example. She likely has no interest in football because she is indirectly influenced to understand that it is not a girls activity. It’s cool if she doesn’t want to go to the football, but hearing that she can and being offered regularly is an important thing for her to have in her scope of influences.

Exactly.

Boys and girls are socialised differently from day dot due to how ingrained sexism is within our society.

Boys are encouraged to like football
Girls are encouraged to be 'pretty'.

My apologies, @Hereforthebunfights

You surely know I was thinking about stereotypical situations of women who let their employability skills lapse if this then affects the dynamic of their marriages, rather than women with disabilities. But it was not sensitive.

Indeed. By 13, that ship has sailed.

The child's mum has an engineering degree. I'm going to assume that she has an inkling about being exposed to the same choices that males are, and bucking expectations.

You’re in an Echo Chamber. You’re fully subscribed to current social trends and as such have surrounded yourself with those who share your views and beliefs.

”I spent my 20s in a large city where people are less hateful”

Where? I’m in London, have been for twenty years and my experience is directly opposite to yours. Everyone I know is rolling their eyes at “Queerness” some are actively offended by having their same sex attraction and love co-opted and labelled thus by Spicy Straights 😁.

I didn’t say there was an “agenda” so I am not sure why that’s in quotation marks? I said there’s huge social currency to be gained from declaring oneself “queer” and that is true. Some have even called this a Social Contagion. I do not mean to suggest this applies to you, you sound older for a start, but it is certainly true among young people and as I have two cynical and eye rolling teenagers and numerous teenagers within my extended family, with lots of mates I feel fairly confident in asserting this.

It’s good that there is increased acceptance around non heteronormativity - I completely applaud it. But it simply isn’t possible to confidently assert as you have, that 20% of people are now and have always been attracted to multiple sexes on the basis of one study and your own anecdotal evidence. Such claims can have no weight when the concept of “Queerness” is so questionable/controversial but holds such value in gaining attention/plaudits for any young person who claims to be such, and when it is clearly, largely social media driven - a pretty recent technology that most of us let our youngsters roam about on completely unsupervised.

Your parent is not your sole or necessarily leading source of influence, especially when it comes to gender socialisation.

While not the sole influence, they are the leading one. Influence doesn't mean to be like someone, it can mean to put someone off.

Yet unfortunately OP doesn’t seem to be aware of how her attitude compounds gender socialisation.

I’m with your SIL too.
I speak similarly with my own DC. I think it’s important both girls and boys know they don’t have to conform to a stereotype.

I love this post and fully agree with the points you make. However, I don’t think it is so relevant to the OP’s situation.

in the case of the OP- It doesn’t seem to be a case where DD is spontaneously expressing her fierce femininity, rather more a situation where the parents are mindlessly modelling archetypal and bland gender stereotypes. Mum stays home and cooks and bakes cookies with DD, while daddy goes off to work and to the football. Mum worries about her DD’s future in a mixed school incase she gets distracted by the boys (because obviously her pretty little girl will be heterosexual). Mum puts DD in girly outfits and dresses to go to parties and encourages her to comply by reinforcing that she will look “pretty” (communicating that being pretty is valuable and aspirational for a little girl , etc etc).

it sounds like SIL is just trying to compensate for some of this conditioning, rather than trying to force DD to be something she’s not.

God, SIL sounds irritating - YANBU. The whole thing about dating boys misses the point. DD will be at school with girls either way so if she wants to date them, they will be around!

I am a pretty radical feminist but that doesn't mean shoving my views down everyone's throats, let alone other people's preschoolers. DD will make her own choices and it sounds like you're doing a great job of giving her plenty of options, although you might want to tone down mentions of being "pretty".

Keep an eye out for SIL trying to introduce gender identity nonsense - sounds like she is a likely person to believe in that.

They all know they can do pretty much anything, and that their mum thinks they are beautiful, and that they can love anyone they choose.

Thank you, @Gladrags1234 - it's nice to know someone understands what I was trying to express.

Again, do you choose the moment when your child runs to you to show you something that they're proud of, to tell then that they really could have done something else?

@MsRosley I thought you put it very prettily!

I plan to do whatever I think suits myself and my family best at any given time :)

Completely irrelevant to the original question so won't bother answering in more detail.

@Nanny0gg her job is in copywriting

She sounds absolutely brilliant!

I’m with you, OP. I’d also be upset, I think certain subjects and controversial themes should be left for the parents to deal whenever and however they deemed age appropriate. I would probably have asked her to step aside politely the first time and then if not effective I would actively avoid her. Rest assured she is very close to start telling your DD she might not feel like a girl, etc. Surely if she really likes her DD she can keep neutral so that she can remain close to her.

She sounds irritating.

A small child shows you something they enjoyed making, so you say "you could have done something else instead". I have a son who would choose baking over football any day.

Undermining a child's mother trying to put them in clean, maybe slightly special clothes by suggesting they wear inappropriate clothing - imagine if DD had taken her up on it, and you'd have to be the bad guy telling her no!

I'd have a word with her about it, tbh. Tell her that any further critiques on how you dress your child or what activities you do with her can be had between the two of you, and away from your daughter.

@SouthLondonMum22 @JustGerroffMe

I earned significantly better than my husband did when we first got together, and we largely lived off my salary when we moved in because sadly medics don't get paid much at the start of their careers. Then his career took off, we decided to have kids and both wanted me to be home caring for our babies whilst they're little.
So, to be a proper feminist, I should go back to work even though it's not what works best for us? I thought feminism was about empowering women to do what they want to do and be who they want to be - whether that's to be a racing driver, a fashion designer or a SAHM!

It is so tedious when so many threads become about SAHMs.