Page 9 | To think this is a case of sour grapes?

Diaria · 2023-12-14T04:40:51+00:00

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums…. Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship. She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time. Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way --like total exhaustion but I digress…-- She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!! Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss. I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums [[https://mol.im/a/12860533 https://mol.im/a/12860533]]

LeopardPJS · 14/12/2023 12:10

The problem with her argument is: what is her proposed solution? The time off for Xmas plays, concerts, child illness, settling them at nursery etc, and maternity leave, is primarily for the wellbeing of the child - not some sort of jolly for parents. Unless she is proposing that we as a society stop reproducing, or that mothers should be banned from the workforce, then I'm afraid she will have to accept that children will exist, those women who choose to have them will have them, and occasionally those women will need to be around to care for them when sick etc and will need to prioritise that over workplace priorities. What does she suggest otherwise? That the state steps in to somehow provide these functions, instead of mothers? Then she'll be moaning about her increased tax bill. She is just a privileged whinger!

FrangipaniBlue · 14/12/2023 12:15

The majority of those agreeing have also said they are child free/childless, there are only a handful of mothers on this thread who seem to share my sentiments @DuvetCovers

My point was about making friends with women with children......

musixa · 14/12/2023 12:40

DelusionalBrilliance · 14/12/2023 11:38

Funny how men don’t complain about it, having the freedom to do what they want career wise and not having to worry about the kids. I mean not all men of course, but overwhelmingly it’s the women who have to pick up the pieces with childcare and sickness, their husbands and partners often don’t. Why isn’t she bashing the dads that don’t do their share or compromise their working lives so that their wives can go to their jobs uninterrupted? Because that wouldn’t fit the misogynistic narrative would it? Her argument is flawed because she chose her job, she chose retail. There are plenty of jobs where you’re not dependant on your coworkers attendance to do well. She sounds bitter and woman hating.

Most women when asked why their career is the one to take a back seat when children arrive, give the explanation their male partner earns more.

Which is fine, but it's a choice - they are choosing to enjoy the lifestyle afforded by their partner's salary, rather than what they could earn themselves.

Women do themselves no favours when they choose not to further their own career.

musixa · 14/12/2023 12:45

The time off for Xmas plays, concerts, child illness, settling them at nursery etc, and maternity leave, is primarily for the wellbeing of the child - not some sort of jolly for parents.

If the concerts and plays are such an ordeal for parents, why on earth do schools invite them?

Hardbackwriter · 14/12/2023 12:50

musixa · 14/12/2023 12:45

The time off for Xmas plays, concerts, child illness, settling them at nursery etc, and maternity leave, is primarily for the wellbeing of the child - not some sort of jolly for parents.

If the concerts and plays are such an ordeal for parents, why on earth do schools invite them?

It's not an ordeal, but it is clearly for the good of the child. Which is why schools invite parents. There is a reason no one ever goes to see performances put on by random infant school pupils they don't know - it's not usually top theatre! But anywhere I've ever worked you have to use annual leave to go to a school event anyway, or make up the time - it's not free extra time off.

Teder · 14/12/2023 12:58

FrangipaniBlue · 14/12/2023 12:03

This thread has pretty much confirmed why I never bothered making "mummy friends" when DS was little.

Honestly, is the vitriol and woe is me attitude really representative of the hive mind of "mothers" ?

As mothers we CHOSE to have children, we CHOSE to go into it knowing it would be hard, that we'd be tired and would have to make sacrifices with our time and money. We KNEW there was a risk to our careers and pensions (and I'm sorry, but that's also within our control and a choice that most mothers make, children with unexpected additional care needs aside).

To throw those CHOICES back at women without children's as a reason why our lives are somehow "worse" and trying to justify why we should have special treatment is quite frankly, appalling.

To be fair, it’s just the OP and a select few who think this way. Most of us normal parents get on with life and don’t whine on about how child free and child less people are super rich with loads of free time and butlers and housekeeps and a private jet etc. 😉

DuvetCovers · 14/12/2023 13:07

FrangipaniBlue · 14/12/2023 12:15

The majority of those agreeing have also said they are child free/childless, there are only a handful of mothers on this thread who seem to share my sentiments @DuvetCovers

My point was about making friends with women with children......

Women with children aren't a hive mind. We are (fairly obviously) as varied in our views as any other group of people, as you demonstrate yourself by also being a woman with children who does not agree with OP 😉

Grumpsy · 14/12/2023 13:08

Diaria · 14/12/2023 10:52

@Starryeyedsurprises

Read the dictionary - advantaged.

I said child free can be privileged in some ways. Just as people with kids can be privileged in some ways.

It is what you make of it.

Show quote history

Childless not through choice here. To call me, and others in the same situation privileged is insulting and infuriating.

you say you went through infertility but appear to still lack empathy. Thanks OP.

I’m not saying it is easy being a parent, and have no doubt it’s a whirlwind, but those of us without children aren’t all sat in our ivory towers, sat on piles of money, having a carefree blissful easy life 😡

mottytotty · 14/12/2023 13:24

Here's a woman expecting special treatment for being a mum.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4962968-angry-and-demanding-a-refund?page=2&reply=131443605

Hardbackwriter · 14/12/2023 13:36

mottytotty · 14/12/2023 13:24

Here's a woman expecting special treatment for being a mum.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4962968-angry-and-demanding-a-refund?page=2&reply=131443605

And 97% of posters think she's unreasonable to do so.

theresnolimits · 14/12/2023 13:39

I’m a parent who worked whilst bringing up children. I haven’t read the article but I do think we have to negotiate a middle way here. As a teacher I never got to see the schools plays etc and didn’t expect to ~ drafted in dad, aunties, grandparents. Even asked other mums to chat with my child. It was just a way of life and I accepted it as did the kids. I could never do parents’ evenings at secondary as I was the teacher ~ we made it work. There’s no ‘rights’ here ~ you have a responsibility to your paid work.

In my job you had an entitlement to 5 paid days for emergency childcare and then another 5 unpaid before it got referred to HR. I had colleagues that took every one of those days every year. Incredible how many children had sick days towards the end of the year to use up the allocation. Colleagues had to ‘cover’ lessons, paid supply brought in. I’m not saying it’s not difficult but it was seen as a ‘right’and very few female teachers ever asked their husbands to stay home. It f it was a one day illness, mum was always default first choice.

When we had to consolidate hours for trips etc, often the working parents refused to even try to be flexible ~ they went straight to ‘I’m a parent, I can’t change’ which meant that others had to pick up the load.

I know it’s hard but the more parents try to be reasonable, the more non parents will be supportive. I didn’t have family within a 60 min radius but I did try to get reciprocal relationships going or paid for babysitters to ease the load. I made the choice to have children and I had to make it work.

Illbebythesea · 14/12/2023 14:14

She sounds like an absolute martyr. Couldn’t decorate her tree or ever enjoy a christmas Day because she was falling asleep on the couch 😂… she works full time and gets 2 days off like most people!? & I have no idea how this is working (mum’s only) fault.

WestwardHo1 · 14/12/2023 15:58

theresnolimits · 14/12/2023 13:39

I’m a parent who worked whilst bringing up children. I haven’t read the article but I do think we have to negotiate a middle way here. As a teacher I never got to see the schools plays etc and didn’t expect to ~ drafted in dad, aunties, grandparents. Even asked other mums to chat with my child. It was just a way of life and I accepted it as did the kids. I could never do parents’ evenings at secondary as I was the teacher ~ we made it work. There’s no ‘rights’ here ~ you have a responsibility to your paid work.

In my job you had an entitlement to 5 paid days for emergency childcare and then another 5 unpaid before it got referred to HR. I had colleagues that took every one of those days every year. Incredible how many children had sick days towards the end of the year to use up the allocation. Colleagues had to ‘cover’ lessons, paid supply brought in. I’m not saying it’s not difficult but it was seen as a ‘right’and very few female teachers ever asked their husbands to stay home. It f it was a one day illness, mum was always default first choice.

When we had to consolidate hours for trips etc, often the working parents refused to even try to be flexible ~ they went straight to ‘I’m a parent, I can’t change’ which meant that others had to pick up the load.

I know it’s hard but the more parents try to be reasonable, the more non parents will be supportive. I didn’t have family within a 60 min radius but I did try to get reciprocal relationships going or paid for babysitters to ease the load. I made the choice to have children and I had to make it work.

I think this is the stuff that causes resentment actually. When I was a teacher I was refused a paid day even for moving house. Had to take it unpaid.

margotrose · 14/12/2023 16:06

The time off for Xmas plays, concerts, child illness, settling them at nursery etc, and maternity leave, is primarily for the wellbeing of the child - not some sort of jolly for parents.

My parents both worked full-time and never took any time off for school plays, nativities or concerts. If I was unwell I often had to wait several hours in the sick bay until one of them had time to come and collect me (we had no family nearby to help).

It's really not essential that parents attend these things and nobody's well-being is going to suffer because mum missed their nativity when they were four.

GreenRedRue · 14/12/2023 16:08

That’s what I mean by privileged; for me a weekend away is a rare occurrence due to the children, in terms of time and money available. For my friends they are unfettered and free to have fun and focus on themselves virtually every weekend

Makes you sound ridiculous...

Your choice was to have children. You're not a disadvantaged woman. And just because someone is childfree doesn't mean they're Iiving the high life 🙄

Other people make different choices, not sure why you're directing so much hate towards them.

Over40Overdating · 14/12/2023 16:59

@CollagenQueen what in the handmaids tale are you on about.

By the same logic, for every woman we bow down to for giving birth to a dr or nurse or fireman, can we put the ones who gave birth to rapists and robbers and every member of the government in the stocks?

musixa · 14/12/2023 17:43

I am childfree:

*for me a weekend away is a rare occurrence due to the children in terms of time and money available.

LaurieStrode · 14/12/2023 17:51

Over40Overdating · 14/12/2023 16:59

@CollagenQueen what in the handmaids tale are you on about.

By the same logic, for every woman we bow down to for giving birth to a dr or nurse or fireman, can we put the ones who gave birth to rapists and robbers and every member of the government in the stocks?

Exactly.

Take a good hard look around at the general public and the number of anti-social people, criminals, deadbeats, abusers, addicts, general losers and people who are incapable of supporting themselves without considerable taxpayer-funded assistance. Parents should consider themselves damned lucky that they aren't held accountable for outcomes.

Also those of us childfree needing services in our old age will have been paying into our public systems, most of which we are in no way shape or form eligible for assistance from, because we haven't reproduced, for 50 years by the time we retire. Without burdening those systems at all for decade after decade after decade, which parents certainly cannot claim. We deserve every bit of help we get as senior citizens.

Furthermore, there is no shortage of human beings on Planet Earth. Sensible immigration reforms can take care of any and all future needs for human labour and consumption to keep the economy growing.

And it's about time we stopped counting on the pyramid scheme of ever-growing human population to bolster our economic model. If there is some pain as we transition to a more sane and environmentally friendly reduction in the human species, I for one am willing to bear that pain so that other species get a chance to survive.

Ineedaholidaynowplease · 14/12/2023 18:00

I absolutely agree that the article is deliberately inflammatory and some of her points are ridiculous but came on to say you are kind of proving some of what she is saying - you very clearly see childless women as less than you. You are dismissive of her wanting time off , and talk about how hard your life is as a mother, seemingly forgetting you chose to be a mother .

@FrangipaniBlue summed it up perfectly tbh.

I'm sure childless women don't fully understand how exhausting having children actually is, but I'm sure they'd give anything to understand it.

What I don't understand is ppl like you, who chose to have children and then go on about how hard it is and expecting ppl who didn't get to make same choice have to listen to how hard your life is and how you envy them ffs. As if being infertile is bloody easy and their lives are one giant party.

Mothers like you are the reason, if there is one, any divide exists between mums and no mums.

LaurieStrode · 14/12/2023 18:00

Lakeyloo · 14/12/2023 10:26

Women without kids by choice aren't "very privileged" ...... they've just made a choice, as you have by choosing to have kids.

Show quote history

Well said.

So freaking weary of the old "childfree have disposable income, aren't tired, don't have the burdens," etc. etc. whining from parents. I've even see parents decide that we childfree don't really "need" all of our discretionary spending money and should be taxed even more than they are to redistribute income to parents.

Guess what? As @Lakeyloo said, we all had the same choices in life. Children weren't foisted on you by some fickle fate or magic fairy or lottery. You CHOSE to have them. No one is forced to procreate. There are tradeoffs to every life choice.

If I chose to be an artist, and I would not be a good one, I'd probably have less discretionary income, less security and more worries than someone who chose to train in accountancy. That would be on ME and no one else. Whining that accountants are "privileged" would be absolutely absurd, petulant and delusional.

We could go on and on but the point is that it is well-known that raising children is labour-intensive, expensive, fraught with potential difficulties such as a child with SEN or disabilities, damaging to marital (or "partner") relationships, and limits one's free time, energy and ability to do other things.

My response to that is: Tough shit. You chose the life and the trade-offs are yours to deal with. Don't ask for special accommodations as though you are doing the rest of us some big favour. I'd rather help save elephants or hedgehogs.

DinaofCloud9 · 14/12/2023 18:28

I agree with the op on the whole but the tone of her posts are a bit off.

Jifmicroliquid · 14/12/2023 18:32

CollagenQueen · 14/12/2023 08:46

If this woman needs medical attention, she will call a doctor

If this woman gets burgled, she will call a police officer

If this woman's house is on fire, she will call for firemen

When she's old and needs carers, she will have them in attendance

Me, and many women, grew the doctors, policemen, firemen and carers, inside of our bodies. And for the privilege, it personally cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost wages, lost pensions, and the actual expense it took to raise them, and sometimes we have medical issues due to traumatic pregnancies and births (not to mention the saggy tummy and tits, to boot).

You're welcome!

Good god, that’s the most ridiculous argument I’ve ever heard.

Theres also woman out there who grew the rapists, the criminals, the benefit cheats, the people with no intention of ever working, the men who abandon their children, the men who violently beat their partner, the people who steal from people through various forms of fraud…

Gettingfedupgrrrr · 14/12/2023 20:48

Just for balance...I am single and childless, worked in the nhs ...pay was terrible, struggled with mortgage, car payments and exist on the woeful wages on my own. I was knackered all the time because I was doing 2 and sometimes 3 people's job at work. I was then caring for elderly relatives on my days off who lived 1.5 hours away. There was no partying, frequent holidays or anything like it.

I envied the women who had 2 wages coming into their home, the help when something broke, collapsed, burst, even just being in the house for the workman to fix whatever had fallen apart. Management took a dim view of my 'single' demands.

Single and childless isn't the worst way to be, especially when you hear the horror stories of the partnerships and parents here, but my experience of being single and childless isn't a walk in the park either.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 22:24

GreenRedRue · 14/12/2023 16:08

That’s what I mean by privileged; for me a weekend away is a rare occurrence due to the children, in terms of time and money available. For my friends they are unfettered and free to have fun and focus on themselves virtually every weekend

Makes you sound ridiculous...

Your choice was to have children. You're not a disadvantaged woman. And just because someone is childfree doesn't mean they're Iiving the high life 🙄

Other people make different choices, not sure why you're directing so much hate towards them.

Omg. I don’t hate anybody!!

I love my friends, all I pointed out was there were advantages to being child free as well as being a parent! It’s obvious!!

And I used the scenario between my friends and I as an example to try and explain what I was saying.

My friends tend to have the advantage of more personal freedoms, I have the advantage of having a family. There are pros and cons to every scenario in life!

OP posts:

thedamnseason · 14/12/2023 22:26

Gettingfedupgrrrr · 14/12/2023 20:48

Just for balance...I am single and childless, worked in the nhs ...pay was terrible, struggled with mortgage, car payments and exist on the woeful wages on my own. I was knackered all the time because I was doing 2 and sometimes 3 people's job at work. I was then caring for elderly relatives on my days off who lived 1.5 hours away. There was no partying, frequent holidays or anything like it.

I envied the women who had 2 wages coming into their home, the help when something broke, collapsed, burst, even just being in the house for the workman to fix whatever had fallen apart. Management took a dim view of my 'single' demands.

Single and childless isn't the worst way to be, especially when you hear the horror stories of the partnerships and parents here, but my experience of being single and childless isn't a walk in the park either.

Exactly. The idea that childless people are all wafting round in nice clothes and going on fancy weekends away is bollocks.
Life is still hard.
I do feel for working parents trying to juggle everything but it's not my responsibility and I refuse to constantly change my plans or make endless allowances for someone else's choices.