To think this is a case of sour grapes?

[Diaria]

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums….

Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship.

She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time.

Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way like total exhaustion but I digress…

She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!!

Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss.

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

https://mol.im/a/12860533

@Ineedaholidaynowplease

I don’t really want to get into the ins and outs of my gynae history, but I was told if I didn’t get pregnant I would end up with very adverse health outcomes… so I did feel very pressured medically.

I don’t see childless people as less than me at all. Relative to the news article - I didn’t understand the lady’s need to foist her issues onto working mums when clearly the issue is poor management, the nature of retail and unresolved issues relative to her fertility struggle.

The majority of women who are childless do not have fertility issues; many are career focused, or didn’t meet the right partner in time. No one’s life is a party, but I do recognise that women who are childless have fulfilling, meaningful lives with certain advantages… just as the lives of mothers are fulfilling and meaningful with certain advantages. I wouldn’t try to diminish either.

Thanks for the balance, the NHS is dire I have a lot of friends in it and all bar docs/band 8s want out. It’s awful. And I’ve been a carer for adults before it isn’t easy at all.

I’m so sorry management were unsupportive of you.

I don’t think I ever said motherhood or being child free was a walk in the park… all I said was child free are “privileged in some ways” just like mothers are in others… and it’s stirred up a hornets nest 🤷‍♀️

It’s upset people because you said childless people are privileged, not childfree people, they’re two different things.

I haven’t slept properly in three days - no sleep at all last night due to DC (hence the article setting me off).

I didn’t click that it was two different things… I obviously did not mean people suffering infertility and going through that absolute looking down the barrel of hell… who the heck would say such a thing?!

I’m so sorry for any misunderstanding, I would absolutely not mean that.

God, I am just reading back some of what I’ve written in the context of what’s just been posted to me.

To be clear - with regard to there being some privilege/advantages I was referring to people who are child free by choice or were childless but are now comfortable being child free (as my friends are). Not people with an ongoing want/difficulty conceiving as they are obviously going through the worst time in their lives.

I really don’t remember this differentiation in terminology from when we were going through fertility issues 10yrs ago.

Apologies again for any offence caused - absolutely NOT my intention. I am going to get some sleep!!

Childfree by choice people aren't "privileged," either.

We merely made different choices, yes choices just as you did, about how to spend our time, energy and money.

You are living the results of YOUR choices. Your kids weren't foisted upon you without your consent.

The Daily mail is obviously always going to be inflammatory for the sake of it, so I’d advise everyone stepping off the gas and remembering that!

One thing I will say to anyone saying ‘Oh, you should have sorted the rotas better, you’re management,- we’ll you’re woefully missing the point. Sort out the rotas in advance, on an ‘all is fair’ basis, that doesn’t stop someone- who is already intent on abusing the system - from agreeing, then last minute calling and saying ‘sorry, last minute child emergency’ any time they fancy it… no consequences for parents because it *cant’ be questioned. You can’t do that if you’re childless.. but if you’ve got a kid, you’ve got the safety net of knowing that if you say it’s a childcare emergency, you’re safe…

yes, it shouldn’t be the case that those , childless or not should pick up the extra work, but bear in mind, people in these professions do not get overtime or bonus now. All they get is - your staff don’t turn up, then it’s on you. Open, or lose your own job. Happy fucking Christmas.

I didnt read the article, it was deliberately inflammatory. I think it goes without saying that being a mum is hard hard work, even in the best of circumstances. I am childless primariliy out of choice, but it was more because I had a really crappy relationship that made me decide to never go there again. Maybe, if I hadn't experienced that, my life choices would have been different, who knows, but I do feel that we need to respect each others choices but not assume that others are having it easy just because we are child free. In the aftermath of my relationship breakdown I was a wreck for a long time (lots of deceit involved) and I didnt cope very well. Being at work and treated like a second class citizen because I was child free and single really didn't help.

I'm not saying this as a boo hoo poor me , just that being childfree isn't always about being unable to have a child due to a difficulty getting pregnant. There were times I just wanted to have a 'normal' life, but it wasn't to be. The judgement I have experienced from other women in particular ( and some men) for being single and not having children has been hard to take....are you gay? is there something wrong with you that you're not married? your opinion is irrelevant, or you're just somewhat of a lesser person whose needs dont matter because youre not a mother, this kind of treatment is both demoralising and maddening.

Hopefully this thread is enlightening for each person's perspective rather than a means of having a pop at each other.

A lot of what she has mentioned is down to poor management. If a member of staff is off on maternity then there should be cover bought in. If they aren't then why not? Surely as a manger you would question how you could do your own job and that of another person? How would you do the hours if you are already full time?

As for sickness well that means other members have to pick up the slack at short notice often anyway. So whether that is your kid being ill or the actual staff member. I think this works both ways. Dh had time off when our dd2 was in hospital , his diary was amended but his colleague attended some meetings he would have. When his colleague was off due to illness dh returned the favour. Had any of these incidences been longer term then his company would have seconded someone to take over their roles. They are a large company and very good at supporting all colleagues though. Often this does not happen in retail and that causes resentment that in my view is misplaced.

I took umbrage with the comments about maternity leave.

There is unfortunately a belief that people without kids should cover Christmas when really everyone should have to take their turn. If it's on a rota system then it's much more fair and gives people time to sort childcare. Again down to poor management, they should be clear that pressuring colleagues to cover is unacceptable and could lead to a disciplinary. Instead many just opt out of having to be firm and ask you to sort among yourselves.

I work in pharmacy and one company would not allow any annual leave in December for pharmacists so many parents would miss things like nativity plays or ask if they could change their days off and depending if they showed flexibility in return it could be approved. They would show the same flexibility to other members of staff with appointments, special events such as anniversaries.

My dh works a 4 day week and has compressed his hours due to childcare. His colleague does the same due to caring responsibilities for her mum. Their company is just very good at making reasonable adjustments for people. Management will make sure productivity doesn't suffer and flexibility can be removed if people take the piss.

I completely agree

Well that didn’t work! I was agreeing with sauerkrautsandwich -

There is plenty to read about how childless /childfree women are treated at work to a point if any other group was, there would be a tribunal and pay out. And eventually there will be. So far cases in US were dismissed, but that's a case of many now successful claims.

It usually hits around important days, especially Christmas. Unless you have children your life outside work simply isn't as important so why should you get time off.
And god forbid she is single. You know. The absolute nonconforming "freak"...

WhileI agree that she is partially describing retail/hospitality work which is pita, the picking up slack while not having any concessions does absolutely happen everywhere and it adds to already stressful jobs.

Privilege is subjective, so I find that argument a bit odd.

A childfree person might have a lot of other stress and difficulties going on- poor health, caring for ill relatives, low income so working all the hours possible in a low paid role that they hate. Is that privileged?

I can't get past finishing at 6pm 😂 and being so exhausted you fall asleep on the sofa the next day. She sounds pathetic that's my normal finish time and it's totally fine

Ok this is bonkers the daily Mail is awful this is tame by their standards! check out what they wrote about disabled people and immigrants!

This is the point. Picking up the slack happens everywhere. And it’s not just people without children picking up the slack for those that do.

I do think employers should be ashamed of themselves if they have a culture or pressuring people without kids to cover Christmas and general holidays. But I dont get the pretence that people without kids never cause inconvenience for others.

While I don’t doubt some of these thing happen. Every example she gave is because she was a retail store manager and the company she worked for. Not because of working mums specifically.

@Diaria you choose to have children, you make it sound like you're doing the country a service.

You choose sleep deprivation above island hoping in Thailand and freedom.

As others have also says, YABU just for reading a DM article.

Wrong thread

@Jifmicroliquid

If they don’t have kids on top then yes you could consider that a privilege or advantage.

For instance I was a carer for 2 adults, worked full time, had chronic health issues and managed two small children 2 and under simultaneously.

If I hadn’t had the kids it would have been more manageable and I would have taken more care of myself and others, there’s only so many ways you can split yourself.

My point I think is that even if you are child free… it isn’t that mothers are more privileged and the child free situation is a drudgery; there is advantage/disadvantage in either scenario.

Hi. I’ve never posted here before so apologies if I don’t know the Mumsnet etiquette.

I’m the ‘sour grapes’ author of the article you’re referring to, and felt I should respond to clarify a few things. I’m aware I’m getting a lot of hate from mums here, which is upsetting, but understandable.

Firstly, I don’t think it’s a case of sour grapes, but yes you’re probably right in saying I still carry a lot of sadness and trauma at my very long and painful fertility journey, which involved 3 failed IVFs, premature menopause in my early 30s and finally culminated in a total hysterectomy last year due to endometrial cancer concerns. It’s been a 25yr gynae battle, but I’m just relieved it’s now over. I’m not bitter, I’ve been through the 5 stages of grief and am now in the acceptance stage. That was in the article but a lot of it got edited out.

Secondly, I don’t want to create a divide between women. The main aim of the article is to get fairness for both mums and non-mums. The reason I don’t mention dads is that as I’ve always worked in beauty retail I’ve very rarely worked with men, and even fewer dads. It’s almost all women.

The issues are not really about Christmas, it’s an all-year problem. It’s just because it’s topical that it’s been focused on Christmas. My experience has very much been that mums can take unlimited days off to look after their children if they’re ill, which is fair enough. Most mums do this only when they really need to BUT there was a significant proportion who used this as a way to do as they pleased, even when the child wasn’t ill, knowing there would be no comebacks. That was what really wound up those of us who didn’t have kids, as we would never have got away with that volume of absence without disciplinary action. My colleagues and I got fed up of doing all their work, year in year out, with no support from HR because they were supposedly protected as they were parents. Bear in mind the women in question were only on a one day a week contract in the first place. So this was their ONE DAY to work to allow one of us to have a day off or do other tasks and then they’d let us down, meaning we had to cover our work and theirs, and as we were full time, would get totally burnt out. Or they would try to insist that their one day a week was split into 2 shifts (which didn’t suit the business). I did my absolute best to accommodate the mums, to the detriment of my own health, for years. So maybe that’s why I sound like a martyr. I didn’t mean to.

Then with holidays, bank holidays, Christmas etc I tried to make it fair but if a mum didn’t like the shift she could pull that child sick card and then the rest of us would be called in to cover it anyway, or just work twice as hard as we’d be left understaffed. In the end we’d often just give in and let the mums have priority with holidays as we knew they just wouldn’t turn up otherwise.

I agree with you that it’s a company issue - if we’d had enough staff in the first place it wouldn’t have been such a crisis if someone was off. And no, it wasn’t always mums who were off.

I think that covers the main points I’ve seen raised here, happy to answer any more questions anyone here may have or listen to your feedback.

Thanks,
Sam

Hi.

I'm glad you see that this is caused by the employers and it is companies we need to be holding accountable for all this and who need to manage things better.

If you do articles in future you should probably make that clearer and make the focus on what companies should be doing rather than on the mothers. Describe what organisational changes should happen and how companies can ensure things are fairer.

Does DM actually provide clothes & shoes for the people in the story photoshoot, does DM do their make up & hair, too?

Yes, that’s what I’m in talks with with various groups and organisations, to try and find a way to make things fairer for all concerned. Childless women do invariably get viewed as ‘less than’ by society, that’s not just me coming at it as someone with a traumatic past. It really is a thing. Since the article went live I’ve had honestly thousands of messages, emails, comments etc from women without kids the world over saying the same. 82% of women have children at some point, so it stands to reason that the remaining 18% can and do feel ostracised, exploited at work, belittled, looked down upon etc. It really is happening. I know mums have it tough too, it’s not a competition, but at least you are surrounded by other mums who can empathise and support you. We often just feel lonely and misunderstood, and that nobody really cares about those without kids. This is not a pity party, not at all, I’m just trying to understand mums better and get you to understand how we feel too.

Yes, you just go to the studio for a couple of hours and they choose your clothes and touch up your hair and makeup. I already had my makeup on so they just touched it up and zhuzhed my hair up a bit too. It doesn’t take long.

Hi

Thanks for postings. I agree there’s still work to do to make society view women who don’t have children as ‘enough’. I hate when women are judged or talked down to when they don’t have kids.

I do also think there are entitled parents in the work place. But I would be shocked if in 30 years you never had problems with staff absence from people who didn’t have children. Plenty of people are entitled, call in sick, don’t pull their weight and they don’t have kids. I can’t believe in 30 years you don’t come across this.

The problem I have is that is like the single parent bashing. female single parents are often blamed for the poor outcomes their children face. Yet the blame is never placed at the door of the men that leave their kids and disappear. Society still sees childcare as the woman’s job and blames women for having to take time off for the kids, rather than look at why it ends up being the woman’s job. As a society we have a lot of work to do to start treating women’s careers and jobs as equal to men’s.

I appreciate it must be frustrating and I don’t think it’s sour grapes. I think it’s self promotion.

You blames working mothers for ruining your Christmas. You blamed working mothers for not being able to face continuing your career. You blamed working mothers for interrupting your holidays. You blamed working mothers for putting you in a position where you had to leave a much loved long career.

But thats not the case. You absolutely can manage employees who have lot of absence whether it’s child related or not. Your company close to understaff youS you worked in a job that expected you to be there on Boxing Day.

Whether you meant it or not, it was an attack on working mothers. Your article attacked working mothers and placed blame for things you don’t like about your job because that enabled you to promote your business.

An article saying how hard it is to work in retail over Christmas with a tiny bit about how managing staff absence made it harder wouldn’t segue well against the promotion of your business and Facebook group. So I can’t imagine how you intended your article to be any other way, as it was an advert.

If you are saying the story you told Samantha Brick was completely different and she misrepresented you, I am sorry she did this. But it can’t have been a surprise. Given her history of anti women and anti mother articles before.

As a mother and a Director of a large company I ensure fairness across the board. Whether people are parents or carers or no caring responsibility at all. I ensure everyone gets equal opportunities. In my career I have seen and had women be awful. I have had women who don’t have kids and who do tell me I shouldn’t have bothered having mine as I have always worked in senior roles and full time. I have had women who don’t have children believe that I should be afforded some opportunities because I have kids and they assumed I couldn’t or wouldn’t want to do certain things and gone to my CEO to take those opportunities for themselves. Several women without children really disliked that I could keep up with them at work. Yet I did. And I am have always had extremely low levels of absence. Even for child related things because I was lucky enough to have a husband who saw my career as important. When he got sick and couldn’t, my mum helped. She died but now I am senior enough and the kids are older I can work round anything.

I don’t, however, treat women who don’t have kids as less than because some of them tried to impact my career. I ensure all the people who work for me are treated fairly. I am very passionate about it. I am passionate about making sure senior women don’t pull the ladder up behind them as well. For all women. I really hate when childless women are treated as less. I hate when women as a group are treated as less. I don’t take my experience with a small number of people on that group and use it to attack the whole group. That’s not making anything better for any of us.

If you want to make the whole situation better for anyone you can. You can actively work to make it better. You can raise awareness and campaign for fairness without attacking the other side.

As an aside.

many of us are not surrounded by other mums who support and understand. Spend a few hours on MN and you will see that’s not the case.

Many women find motherhood completely isolating. They find themselves with no support, no one to empathise. Even on places like mumsnet where most people are women and parents.

Even in mum and baby groups, so many mothers don’t fit in. Or can’t find someone they gel with.

It’s not a club you join and find a group that accepts and supports you unconditionally. Some women find a group who provides that support and empathy. But many more do not.