Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is a case of sour grapes?

402 replies

Diaria · 14/12/2023 04:40

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums….

Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship.

She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time.

Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way like total exhaustion but I digress…

She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!!

Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss.

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

https://mol.im/a/12860533

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

Having often felt obliged to fill in for mums who called in sick, and having worked every Boxing Day for 20 years, Samantha Walsh, 47, handed in her notice at the end of October and has no regrets.

https://mol.im/a/12860533

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 11:59

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 11:14

The magic of Christmas is all about young children, surely people see that? If a kind colleague offers to swap a shift so young children can wake up Christmas morning with their parents, wouldn’t everyone accept that swap?
I know when mine are older I will repay the favour. Your point about my children not having children and working every Christmas was ridiculous!

Sorry but I completely disagree.

The magic of Christmas is not ALL about children at all.

Mine are older, one an adult and it’s still magical. It was magical before they. And is now.

If a colleague genuinely offers to cover, it’s fine to accept. But you must be aware that many people will feel they HAVE to offer.

Dbro uses to offer to do Christmas because he wanted new year off. Genuine offer because it also suited him. Accepting in that situation is fine.

Accepting even though you know that colleague would rather have Christmas at home (regardless of who they are with or ages of who they are with) but have been shamed into offering is pretty poor behaviour imo.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 12:11

Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 11:59

Sorry but I completely disagree.

The magic of Christmas is not ALL about children at all.

Mine are older, one an adult and it’s still magical. It was magical before they. And is now.

If a colleague genuinely offers to cover, it’s fine to accept. But you must be aware that many people will feel they HAVE to offer.

Dbro uses to offer to do Christmas because he wanted new year off. Genuine offer because it also suited him. Accepting in that situation is fine.

Accepting even though you know that colleague would rather have Christmas at home (regardless of who they are with or ages of who they are with) but have been shamed into offering is pretty poor behaviour imo.

I do appreciate your point and the way you explained it without trying to be rude.
i am very lucky to work with a great team and we all do favours for each other. I have a childless colleague who wants to see family abroad, I’ve picked up extra the week before Xmas for him. I have another who wants to go out NYE, I’ll work it. But they know I have little ones who believe in father Xmas so they made genuine offers to work this (I owe them big time) and I promise I offered pre children and genuinely meant it.
I hadn’t considered the magic of older children. My family were pretty chaotic so the only years I look back on fondly were when I believed.
sorry, if I offended anyone!

Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 12:40

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 12:11

I do appreciate your point and the way you explained it without trying to be rude.
i am very lucky to work with a great team and we all do favours for each other. I have a childless colleague who wants to see family abroad, I’ve picked up extra the week before Xmas for him. I have another who wants to go out NYE, I’ll work it. But they know I have little ones who believe in father Xmas so they made genuine offers to work this (I owe them big time) and I promise I offered pre children and genuinely meant it.
I hadn’t considered the magic of older children. My family were pretty chaotic so the only years I look back on fondly were when I believed.
sorry, if I offended anyone!

My teams also do all sorts of favours for each other. They sound similar to yours.

But that can only happen if everyone has the same attitude. If you get someone on the team that starts believing they always take priority that’s where the problems start.

Which is why managers and leaders need to make sure things are always as fair as possible. Including making it fair at Christmas. What fair looks like is different for each team.

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 12:47

Oh I don’t think people are less likely to tell me I’m wrong - by message, email, or any other means! I’ve had plenty of abuse on this public thread alone, so you can imagine the trolling I’ve had in private by people who don’t have the guts to say it publicly. But I’m strong enough to accept it and recognise that it’s usually down to their own issues. That’s why I’ve put up with the situation for so many years - because I knew my mental health would need to be robust to speak out against the majority, and after everything I’d been through it wasn’t. This is precisely why so many non-parents stay silent, and why I’m getting so much support now. Like it or not, millions of people around the world feel exactly the same way as me and are thanking me for having the balls to voice what they daren’t.

KimberleyClark · 19/12/2023 13:11

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 11:14

The magic of Christmas is all about young children, surely people see that? If a kind colleague offers to swap a shift so young children can wake up Christmas morning with their parents, wouldn’t everyone accept that swap?
I know when mine are older I will repay the favour. Your point about my children not having children and working every Christmas was ridiculous!

Repay it to whom though? Other mothers of young children I expect. What about those women in the workplace who will always be childless?

ArtisticMeeg · 19/12/2023 13:14

I don't have children. And I am unlikely to have any children. (Years of IVF and miscarriage etc and am now well over 40).
I have definitely experienced being told to work so others with children can have Christmas/other holidays off etc.
I really couldn't care less if people get time off related to their children as long as it doesn't affect me or my work load. But the fact is it often does.
While I agree to a certain extent that Christmas is more magical for children, I don't agree that means anyone without children should always work. I have other children in my family who aren't mine. And they often have big family gatherings. Why should I have to miss out on those every year? Oh I can go on new years can I? Or boxing day? Well they don't have the whole family gathering on those days. For the same reason others don't want to change their Christmas day to another day. Just because they aren't my children doesn't mean they aren't my family and occasionally I would like to see them all together and have a nice Christmas!
I also find the ones with children who claim they will "pay it back when their children are older" rarely do. It goes from its my babies first Christmas to they're only this young once to believe in santa to well I know they're teenagers but soon they'll be moving out and I won't see them to they've been away at uni for so long I want to see them to its my grand babies first Christmas! And round we go again.
If someone childless wants to volunteer to swap with someone with children then that's great! But no one should be forced/ made to feel guilty etc about not wanting to swap.

At one point in my life I was the only person my mother was able to see at Christmas. So if I wasn't there she would be alone. If I happened to be on the rota to work then it is what it is and my mum would understand. But why would I swap every year and leave her alone every year? I'm glad that one year I was off turned out to be her last Christmas.

Also what is this privileged nonsense that child free / childless people apparantly have?? Very very few people who have children didn't choose to have them. Privileged that I have more disposable income and can sleep in? Or privileged that my ovaries didn't work and i had the joy of spending 30k to try and make them work? Ridiculous.
I have a friend who has way more money than me as her chosen profession pays more. She also has 2 children. But still has WAY more money than me. (Isn't loaded though. Just very financially secure) I don't consider her privileged compared to me. We both had the same opportunities in life. But our lives took different paths. And I would hope she doesn't consider me privileged because I can sleep in on a Sunday in the same way i don't consider her privileged because her ovaries worked better and she studied a different subject at university. We both made our choices and our lives are what they are.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 13:15

KimberleyClark · 19/12/2023 13:11

Repay it to whom though? Other mothers of young children I expect. What about those women in the workplace who will always be childless?

The retail industry closes Christmas Day surely? So they always have that day off. I’m talking about jobs where working Christmas is essential.
yes I probably would repay to young mothers on Christmas Day but would go out of my way to return a favour to anybody, whether that be short notice swaps or filling in so they can go to an event important to them.

Panama2 · 19/12/2023 13:37

Where I used to work there was the assumption that those with children would have Easter off, whenever there was a Bank Holiday they would have first dibs on booking extra time off and of course Christmas. I have children I understand what it is like however it would have been nice to have been able to book time of the holidays.

One year I had to due to surgery I was not popular

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/12/2023 13:50

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 13:15

The retail industry closes Christmas Day surely? So they always have that day off. I’m talking about jobs where working Christmas is essential.
yes I probably would repay to young mothers on Christmas Day but would go out of my way to return a favour to anybody, whether that be short notice swaps or filling in so they can go to an event important to them.

I feel like you're saying you'd only repay the Christmas Day working favour to other mums whereas for anyone else, you'll go out of your way to give them say a random weekend in February.

That's the kind of distinction we're annoyed about. We're expected to do all the Christmases to let all the parents of young children experience the magic, but then those same parents will only pay it forward to other mums. It's also why the whole "parents know what it's like because they work before becoming parents" just isn't true.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 13:59

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 12:47

Oh I don’t think people are less likely to tell me I’m wrong - by message, email, or any other means! I’ve had plenty of abuse on this public thread alone, so you can imagine the trolling I’ve had in private by people who don’t have the guts to say it publicly. But I’m strong enough to accept it and recognise that it’s usually down to their own issues. That’s why I’ve put up with the situation for so many years - because I knew my mental health would need to be robust to speak out against the majority, and after everything I’d been through it wasn’t. This is precisely why so many non-parents stay silent, and why I’m getting so much support now. Like it or not, millions of people around the world feel exactly the same way as me and are thanking me for having the balls to voice what they daren’t.

It’s great you are getting support.

But you only mentioned support. Not that people also are contacting you to disagree with you.

If plenty of people agree and plenty disagree, then opinion is split.

i am sure millions and millions of people without kids, think their employer is shit. Which, we established which was actually the issue. Millions of parents think their employers are shit too.

As I said, I am not denying that some parents are entitled. But that wasn’t your main issue. Your issue that you don’t know you own employment rights, or the rights of your staff AND your manager and company misled you.

I get that blaming women who have kids makes a better advert. But it’s still not accurate.

If you really wanted to make things better for everyone, you would have taken aim at employers who mislead employees about their rights and who try and force those without kids to make those with kids happy.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 14:21

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/12/2023 13:50

I feel like you're saying you'd only repay the Christmas Day working favour to other mums whereas for anyone else, you'll go out of your way to give them say a random weekend in February.

That's the kind of distinction we're annoyed about. We're expected to do all the Christmases to let all the parents of young children experience the magic, but then those same parents will only pay it forward to other mums. It's also why the whole "parents know what it's like because they work before becoming parents" just isn't true.

@KimberleyClark said she expected I would only offer the favour to mums of young children & I agreed as it’s those I feel really need to be off for Christmas Day.
Geez, it’s like you can’t win for being nice. I’ve never asked for Xmas off but you get one childhood, 5 years of believing in father Xmas & people are determined to make this an us vs them event!
Most childless people have tried to have children for years and that is truly awful and sad but these same people, are now the ones getting cross with working mums. Would they not have done the same? Caused the same ‘issues’ in the workplace? Would they rather mums didn’t work?

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 16:00

I’d say the split is 80/20 in support of me. I did write in the article that it was a call-to-action for employers “that’s why I want to encourage our society, business bosses and parents to think about their childless colleagues and how to support us too.” If you listen to the Woman’s Hour interview we discuss this in more detail, and I will continue to do so.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/12/2023 16:23

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 14:21

@KimberleyClark said she expected I would only offer the favour to mums of young children & I agreed as it’s those I feel really need to be off for Christmas Day.
Geez, it’s like you can’t win for being nice. I’ve never asked for Xmas off but you get one childhood, 5 years of believing in father Xmas & people are determined to make this an us vs them event!
Most childless people have tried to have children for years and that is truly awful and sad but these same people, are now the ones getting cross with working mums. Would they not have done the same? Caused the same ‘issues’ in the workplace? Would they rather mums didn’t work?

I mean, you're basically saying you'll only repay the kindness you experienced (people working Christmas so you didn't have to) to other mums - I wouldn't say that's falling over yourself to be nice, so I don't know what you're 'geezing' about.

And no, literally nobody has said they'd rather mums didn't work. We'd rather that they took their fair share of working on Christmas if that's the job they signed up for, though. Sorry to be all 'us and them' about this but I have missed the last 7 Christmases due to parents refusing to take their turns, so it's more than just petty stuff to me.

AutumnNamechange · 19/12/2023 17:54

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 11:03

I find this quite a rude response. I assume you don’t have children?
I’m a nurse and I do work very unsociable hours, including Christmas. My children are very aware the world doesn’t revolve around them.
I’m just trying to explain that children should come before work when possible. My point was badly made. If they’re sick and my choices are to care for them or take a day off (it’s rare), I will choose them.

Yes I do have children - says a lot about you that you assume someone who you consider rude must be childless! Your original point doesn't make any sense then as you specifically reference Christmas, now you are talking about taking time off when they are sick 🤷‍♀️

Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 17:59

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 16:00

I’d say the split is 80/20 in support of me. I did write in the article that it was a call-to-action for employers “that’s why I want to encourage our society, business bosses and parents to think about their childless colleagues and how to support us too.” If you listen to the Woman’s Hour interview we discuss this in more detail, and I will continue to do so.

Except the content of the article was full of stories of how working mothers made your work life unhappy.

Not that you didn’t understand absence management and you company didn’t support. Not that company lies to you about what’s considered a dependent. Not that your manager lied to about flexible working requests. Not about they understaffed your store.

80/20 is good. As I said people are far less likely to come to saying they disagree. I don’t actually disagree it’s a problem. It clearly is. But I disagree that you left your career just down to working mothers. The discussion here proved it.

We aren’t talking about an interview. We are talking about the content of the article. The call to arms for employers means nothing when you laid no blame at their door. You misplaced the blame.

Your article gives employers an out ‘she could have declared her father a dependents not our fault she didn’t’ and so on.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 20:08

AutumnNamechange · 19/12/2023 17:54

Yes I do have children - says a lot about you that you assume someone who you consider rude must be childless! Your original point doesn't make any sense then as you specifically reference Christmas, now you are talking about taking time off when they are sick 🤷‍♀️

I don’t assume you’re rude because you don’t have children. I have no idea why you’re rude tbh.
I assume you don’t understand my point and you support this woman on her mad campaign to blame working mums for ending her retail career!
in her article she references mum’s taking time off because their children are unwell and for not working all of Christmas.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 20:15

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/12/2023 16:23

I mean, you're basically saying you'll only repay the kindness you experienced (people working Christmas so you didn't have to) to other mums - I wouldn't say that's falling over yourself to be nice, so I don't know what you're 'geezing' about.

And no, literally nobody has said they'd rather mums didn't work. We'd rather that they took their fair share of working on Christmas if that's the job they signed up for, though. Sorry to be all 'us and them' about this but I have missed the last 7 Christmases due to parents refusing to take their turns, so it's more than just petty stuff to me.

You know there are jobs where you don’t have to work Christmas? Ironically, retail is one of them. I would have a word with your boss also, there’s no reason anybody should work 7 Christmas’ in a row.
I’ve worked 50% of Christmas’s since staring my job (16 years ago). That seems fair!

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 21:33

Without going into specific individual situations at work I can assure you that the reason I left my job was almost entirely down to the mums and the issues they caused over many years.

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 22:16

I absolutely did not misplace the blame - if you had any inkling of what some mums do to milk the system and exploit everyone around them for their own gain you would probably shake my hand for leaving. If anything, I’ve been overly kind in my explanations of what happened. The reality was far worse!

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 22:44

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 21:33

Without going into specific individual situations at work I can assure you that the reason I left my job was almost entirely down to the mums and the issues they caused over many years.

Perhaps they did in your job. All sorts of people milk the system. You are focusing on working mums and making out they are parasites. I haven’t found this the case in any of my jobs and am fully committed to my albeit part time work. Can’t you just find a new one and leave us out of your media circus?

ElaineMBenes · 19/12/2023 22:59

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 21:33

Without going into specific individual situations at work I can assure you that the reason I left my job was almost entirely down to the mums and the issues they caused over many years.

Surely it was management/HRs inability to deal with the issues effectively?

I've worked in female dominated professions where many of the staff have been mums to young children. There were clear policies in place to ensure fairness.

Starryeyedsurprises · 19/12/2023 23:43

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 20:15

You know there are jobs where you don’t have to work Christmas? Ironically, retail is one of them. I would have a word with your boss also, there’s no reason anybody should work 7 Christmas’ in a row.
I’ve worked 50% of Christmas’s since staring my job (16 years ago). That seems fair!

Lots of people in retail have to work Christmas. My friend couldn’t travel to spend time with her family last year because she had to work Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

WilmaWonka · 20/12/2023 00:02

Decent employers try to ensure their staff have a work life balance though. For parents of children, this means they should be able to take time off to work around those responsibilities which childless people don’t have.

I’ve never worked in a job which required me to work Christmas Day since having DC but have always taken turns working the period in between NY which is fair although can be impossible with primary school age DC if you have no family to help or childcare.

I had an issue in a previous job with a childless colleague deliberately booking the time between Christmas and NY off a year in advance before my mind had caught up to do it and refused to take turns then complained that she wanted time off in the school summer holidays which I had booked!

Unfortunately most mums don’t have the choice of whether to work or not nowadays and have to balance that with their childcare responsibilities. That’s on the government not them.

Notice that the woman in the article is singling out working mums not dads. Would she not have a problem with fathers booking Christmas off, or is it just mums?

Sour grapes indeed.

Diaria · 20/12/2023 00:13

Following with interest, don’t want to make too much of a reply without listening to the woman’s hour interview and reading through properly…. Which I probably won’t have time for until kids are back to school.

What I will say is that inflammatory articles pitting women against each other are not that helpful to solving the problem, which is a combination of management, childcare provision and unequal distribution of parental responsibility.

The issue with management is the main one and has been discussed and acknowledged. Some employers have better policies and ways of doing things. Unfortunately in retail and other such professions you don’t necessarily find the same standard and that needs to change.

Regards to childcare, the mass exodus of childcare providers around holiday times and particularly inadequate summer cover and emergency cover has a lot to answer for. For instance when the nativity is on the wraparound care ceases at our school as it’s expected parents will be there to collect children - for some it is not the case of attending the nativity but that if they don’t show up there is no one to collect and look after their child. While there are summer schemes and cover over Easter for example (if you have £120+ a week), at Christmas it is a virtual desert with tumble weed - not only do you have the main holiday days, for school age kids there are two weeks to cover and no where to put them unless you have family and friends to hand.

Some might say oh but this is akin to care of the elderly… but having cared for both geriatrics and children under 12, I can tell you that isn’t the case. The adults have either the opportunity to pay for care or have care funded for them and this doesn’t stop over holiday periods. For a child it is on their parents.

Finally, invariably with multiple maternity leaves, many women’s careers are put on the back burner, partners/husbands go ahead and the default position tends to be women as primary carer for offspring (though there are exceptions). This means you have the Mums, mainly, requiring all the emergency days/holiday days for their children, while Dad goes on unabated. If each parent was able to/wanted to take equal responsibility the impact of either on other workers would be less, potentially.

I think what we have to remember is that there was a time when women who got married/had children were excluded from work places (such as the civil service). Parental rights at work have been brought in to level the playing field and to facilitate the care of children while not relegating the primary carer to being tied to the kitchen sink. To abolish these rights would be a retrograde step and damaging to women as a whole.

The fact that it is women who appear to have a problem with the status quo and not the very many men who are affected by this is telling and speaks to their own issues, as far as I can read it.

My DH has worked in retail and now works in an adjacent industry that is busy at the same times. He works Xmas Eve and Boxing Day because that is how it is…. as well as most of the rest of the holidays… when he gets home he doesn’t slump on the sofa at 7pm and get to go to bed early because there is more that needs to be done. And he gets on with it.

But why should he, shouldn’t people in retail and related industries have a day off to enjoy the holidays too? The only ones who appear to be able to are those who are primary carers for children, while the rest are quite literally worked to the bone. That is unfair, and to demonise working Mums as the problem, it’s just not in touch with reality. For instance - there are virtually no women in my DH’s workplace, nor primary carers, but plenty who take the piss around Christmas. Management have solved the problem with incentives, staff absence is now next to nothing. Effective management is the key issue here.

I’m still trying to reconcile the downtrodden, exhausted lady in the DM article I read with the party girl in another DM piece a few months prior. But c’est la vie. Wish you all the best Sammy and that you feel more at piece in your new role whatever that may be.

OP posts:
Diaria · 20/12/2023 00:21
  • Peace ✌️🕊️
OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread