Page 14 | To think this is a case of sour grapes?

Diaria · 2023-12-14T04:40:51+00:00

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums…. Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship. She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time. Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way --like total exhaustion but I digress…-- She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!! Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss. I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums [[https://mol.im/a/12860533 https://mol.im/a/12860533]]

Livelifelaughter · 16/12/2023 12:32

@ElaineMBenes I agree to a point but I have countless friends in well paid jobs who have parents, nanny's who take a year off and have openly said they don't need it for the child. I appreciate it's a massive financial hit for some people but not all.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 12:38

Livelifelaughter · 16/12/2023 12:25

It was applied incorrectly I suspect..the application for flex leave was rejected. I checked and it's 18 weeks taken as 4 weeks per year in week blocks and its unpaid, per child up to age 18. So my point is that a person without children doesn't get this, so it's this type of thing that I do find annoying.
Yes I could apply for flex leave but so can someone with children plus they get the above.

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I agree there should be more.

Some larger employers in the UK allow breaks from work in a similar fashion for any employees, every year.

I would agree that it should be available to everyone.

A company applying it incorrectly and allowing someone to incorrectly use unpaid leave can’t be account for in legislation. She wanted to work 4 days and I would support anyone (kids or not) that wants to reduce their days.

But that company doing things wrong isn’t a problem with working parents vs non working parents and actually having people working 4 days a weeks successfully can help other people’s flexible working request. A flexible working request can not be turned down on the basis you don’t have kids only.

I can’t get my head round any decent size company has come up with a secure business reason to turn down flexible working, they really needed to do their research but they getting parental leave applied incorrectly.

A company incorrectly applying leave of any type is a problem at the company.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 12:40

And let’s not forget, parental leave is offered to try and keep parents in the work place.

Not because the government want to be kind to parents.

But I would support a campaign to have it available to all. Not sure everyone would be happy with the kit they see to their career if they actually take it though.

which again, doesn’t happen to parents. If they take all the leave they legally can.

Teder · 16/12/2023 12:52

Diaria · 15/12/2023 12:21

@Jifmicroliquid

If they don’t have kids on top then yes you could consider that a privilege or advantage.

For instance I was a carer for 2 adults, worked full time, had chronic health issues and managed two small children 2 and under simultaneously.

If I hadn’t had the kids it would have been more manageable and I would have taken more care of myself and others, there’s only so many ways you can split yourself.

My point I think is that even if you are child free… it isn’t that mothers are more privileged and the child free situation is a drudgery; there is advantage/disadvantage in either scenario.

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You seem to be playing top trumps. Why do you want us mothers to have it worst?

Perhaps that person who is also chronically ill, works full time and cares for 2 adults would LOVE the pleasure and joy of parenthood rather than their grief and sadness from their infertility?

Try not to think it’s automatically harder because you chose to have children. There are people out there who would love the stress of children to be added to their lives.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 16/12/2023 13:29

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 12:31

You are missing the point.

Negative people impact people in the work place disproportionately. No doubt there some knobheads. But they have been given the confidence to keep saying that and spread their think to people who can’t think critically. Because it wasn’t managed they feel brave enough to say and they have likely got others on board with their bullying.

Just like the author of the article was influenced by her own employer into thinking she couldn’t put a flexible working request in, or that her father couldn’t be a dependent and said it as though it’s facts will have influenced some people to believe dependency leave is only for children. Or that only parents can put in a flexible working request. They will believe because they read it and don’t think critically enough to actually see if it’s true.

Had the authors employer actually trained her, she wouldn’t have been telling the world she left her career due to working mums. She would be telling them she left because she needed to care for her father and they lied and told her he couldn’t be a dependant. Because her manager lied to her and told her she couldn’t put in a flexible working request. Because the company continually under staffed the store.

That’s why it’s a management issue. Management can’t stop someone being a knobheads inside their own head or in their life outside world they can stop it becoming a culture where it’s ok to be a knobheads in work. Had management been effective, you wouldn’t have many people saying many awful things.

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I think you’re quite committed to convincing me that I’m misunderstanding what’s happening at my workplace, when both of us in fact agree that it’s partly because there are knobheads and partly because there is bad management of said knobheads.

I get that you’re annoyed that I’m calling out the knobheads, but I find it annoying when people handwave away the knobheads with an airy “oh that’s just bad management”.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 13:49

fitzwilliamdarcy · 16/12/2023 13:29

I think you’re quite committed to convincing me that I’m misunderstanding what’s happening at my workplace, when both of us in fact agree that it’s partly because there are knobheads and partly because there is bad management of said knobheads.

I get that you’re annoyed that I’m calling out the knobheads, but I find it annoying when people handwave away the knobheads with an airy “oh that’s just bad management”.

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Why have you decided I am annoyed at anything?

Why would I label someone knobheads then have an issue with someone saying they are knobheads?

There’s knobheads everywhere. Some are awful to people without kids, some are awful to those with kids, some are awful to women, or people who are quiet or shy.

But these people would have zero impact on you, if the management were doing their jobs properly.

We can’t stop people thinking what they think. but we can stop it spreading and impacting people.

knobheads exist. They only get air time in these situations due to management and often the bullshit spreads when not stopped. So management are actually making the situation worse and letting it spread.

we agree some people are knobheads. we agree management are to blame to some degree. I believe the blame, for the impact, lies entirely with management and some people are knobheads. It’s an employer issue.

It’s not a working mother’s issue. Because not all or even most working mothers think like that.

lap90 · 16/12/2023 15:01

There are numerous threads that have been made on Mumsnet alone about some of the points mentioned in that article, so no, i wouldn't be quick to write if off as sour grapes.

sunglassesonthetable · 16/12/2023 16:04

Honestly working in retail is an absolute bitch.

I'd say that's the main problem here.

ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees · 16/12/2023 17:52

Diaria · 14/12/2023 22:34

@Ineedaholidaynowplease

I don’t really want to get into the ins and outs of my gynae history, but I was told if I didn’t get pregnant I would end up with very adverse health outcomes… so I did feel very pressured medically.

I don’t see childless people as less than me at all. Relative to the news article - I didn’t understand the lady’s need to foist her issues onto working mums when clearly the issue is poor management, the nature of retail and unresolved issues relative to her fertility struggle.

The majority of women who are childless do not have fertility issues; many are career focused, or didn’t meet the right partner in time. No one’s life is a party, but I do recognise that women who are childless have fulfilling, meaningful lives with certain advantages… just as the lives of mothers are fulfilling and meaningful with certain advantages. I wouldn’t try to diminish either.

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Can I just ask why you got the information that the majority of women who are childless do not have fertility issues?

Is it just something you made up because I don't believe there are stats to back it up? If you have them can you please share them as I would be interested to read about it?

Most people still don't publically talk about their fertility issues.

A lot of narrowminded people assume others don't have children because of their high flying career. No one stops to think that maybe the career is the second choice and have kids may have been their preference or god forbid they would have had both if it was an option for them.

Or your assumption that a childless woman didn't meet a partner in time? Maybe the fertility struggles caused a break up? Maybe the partner wanted children more than relationship? Maybe the interfertility had a significant impact on their confidence when meeting a partner?

Loads of maybes, and loads of assumptions on your part when in reality you probably know very little about why certain women don't have children.

Accountsdept · 17/12/2023 11:05

Over40Overdating · 14/12/2023 08:51

Well this article has done what it was designed to - get the the high horse brigade out in force, trotting out the usual tropes about childless women.

As someone who is child free by choice the insults don’t bother me any more - I am not bitter, jealous or eating sour grapes, thanks - but the language being used about a woman with a long and painful fertility battle is a new low, even for mumsnet.

And I was someone who always worked for my colleagues who had kids until a few trotted out their real feelings about childless women as though it was canon law. Never done a single favour since and made sure I get equal time off in summer and at Xmas - it’s not childless people who need to check their privilege or attitude.

This

Sam is a friend of mine and I know personally the battles she has endured. Myself I have 2 children and worked in retail and I know how the parents were favourited, although this was 20 years ago

Tandora · 17/12/2023 11:13

Diaria · 14/12/2023 04:57

Maybe it is a case of the grass is always greener?

I find myself hugely envious of women in her position.

relative freedom to do what you want whenever you want
time and energy to build career
no loss of pension
days off are actual days off
spending time with adults that you actually want to
hobbies
enormous amount of disposable income

Very often it is women who end up being the main care giver for a child and children are important for the future of society… so should they not be cared for and nurtured by their parents because a 50yo wants to scoff chocs on the sofa for hours on end or whatever else she thinks mothers do that we don’t actually do. 🤷‍♀️

You feel envious of a woman who has battled with infertility? Please educate yourself and reflect on your privilege.

We live in a pronatalist society. There is little in life more painful than the grief of being involuntarily childless.

obviously this woman’s comments about mat leave etc., are unreasonable, but your remarks here are insufferable.

Poppysmom22 · 17/12/2023 11:57

Not sour grapes at all it's how it is for non mothers in workplaces. Unless you are a totally heartless person you aren't going to say no when asked if you'll cover Christmas because it's little tarquins first Christmas etc. and then there's the parental leave when the kids are sick and people phone in someone's got to cover the work it can't be helped but you surely understand that it's the people whose kids don't need picking up who are asked to stay later/travel for work etc. it's not sour grapes to be miffed that it's always you being asked. I'm the only one without kids in our team and it's always me this is my first Christmas off in 9 years because we have got through a year without any babies

Duchydutch · 17/12/2023 18:26

CollagenQueen · 14/12/2023 08:46

If this woman needs medical attention, she will call a doctor

If this woman gets burgled, she will call a police officer

If this woman's house is on fire, she will call for firemen

When she's old and needs carers, she will have them in attendance

Me, and many women, grew the doctors, policemen, firemen and carers, inside of our bodies. And for the privilege, it personallycost us hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost wages, lost pensions, and the actual expense it took to raise them, and sometimes we have medical issues due to traumatic pregnancies and births (not to mention the saggy tummy and tits, to boot).

By your logic, you’re also responsible for murderers, rapists and terrorists? Well done you!!

Osakagirl · 19/12/2023 06:08

The article was written by Samantha ‘I’m so beautiful’ Brick, who is the worst type of gutter click bait hack. I’d imagine that Samantha Walsh had a minor moan about it, and SB blew it all out of proportion to the point that Walsh will be at best embarrassed, and at worst a pariah. I hope that Walsh was at least paid enough for the Thailand holiday as her fee, because you can be sure that the DM will have earned many multiples of the flight costs for the amount of clicks we’ve all done (me included). The more we read this guff, the more the DM
profits.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 09:33

Tandora · 17/12/2023 11:13

You feel envious of a woman who has battled with infertility? Please educate yourself and reflect on your privilege.

We live in a pronatalist society. There is little in life more painful than the grief of being involuntarily childless.

obviously this woman’s comments about mat leave etc., are unreasonable, but your remarks here are insufferable.

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Envious may be the wrong word but there are definite perks to being childless-more disposable income, career progression is easier, freedom, holidays, often better health.
I chose to have children and do not regret my choice. They are not biologically ours, there are many ways to have children.
I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas.

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 09:40

I’m afraid you’re totally wrong. The article was entirely true, I’m proud of speaking out, and the overwhelming response has been support towards me. The article has gone viral, I’m receiving messages from all over the world agreeing with me, and was invited onto BBC’s Woman’s Hour yesterday to debate it, where I received a warm welcome and an outpouring if support. So I’m sorry to break it to you, but even mums the world over are supporting me and the conversation as I try to bring about change, equality and fairness for all in the workplace. Most mums are recognising that this important conversation will ultimately benefit them too 🙂.

Tandora · 19/12/2023 09:41

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 09:33

Envious may be the wrong word but there are definite perks to being childless-more disposable income, career progression is easier, freedom, holidays, often better health.
I chose to have children and do not regret my choice. They are not biologically ours, there are many ways to have children.
I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas.

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There is a difference between being childless and childfree (by choice). Telling an involuntarily childless person that her life has “perks” cos she gets to go on holiday is completely insufferable. Would you give up your children for a holiday? Of course not.

Of course there are trade offs when you have children, but the reason we choose to have them is that nothing matters more to us than having that family that we crave. The pain of wanting/needing that and having it not work out is indescribable.

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 09:44

If anyone would like to hear me discuss the article in more detail and the points raised, you can listen to my interview on Woman’s Hour where I was invited to the BBC studios to debate it with presenter Emma Barnett (a mum of 2) yesterday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tgkf

Woman's Hour - Gracie Spinks' parents, Child-free women at work, Grandma Wong - BBC Sounds

Gracie was killed by her stalker. Her parents explain why they want a change in the law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tgkf

KimberleyClark · 19/12/2023 09:48

You did really well @SourSammy. I noted one of the texts Emma Barnett read out was along the lines of “but we’re raising the next generation so you owe us!”

HavfrueDenizKisi · 19/12/2023 09:56

@SourSammy I did hear your piece on woman's hour yesterday and as a mum of 2, I absolutely agree with you all the way. Well done for highlighting it.

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 10:21

Thank you! That means a lot. I honestly do want to make things better for both sides. The ultimate goal is better understanding of the issues both sides face and create a less stressful, more harmonious working environment for ALL women.

AutumnNamechange · 19/12/2023 10:54

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 09:33

Envious may be the wrong word but there are definite perks to being childless-more disposable income, career progression is easier, freedom, holidays, often better health.
I chose to have children and do not regret my choice. They are not biologically ours, there are many ways to have children.
I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas.

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I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas

My mum was a midwife and often worked at Christmas - I didn't once think she didn't put us first in her life or care about us - what a ridiculous thing to say. It was also a good lesson in the world not revolving around us. I hope that if your children grow up to not have children that you won't expect them to spend Christmas with you then - you must instil in them the need to always put those with children first according to your logic.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 11:03

AutumnNamechange · 19/12/2023 10:54

I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas

My mum was a midwife and often worked at Christmas - I didn't once think she didn't put us first in her life or care about us - what a ridiculous thing to say. It was also a good lesson in the world not revolving around us. I hope that if your children grow up to not have children that you won't expect them to spend Christmas with you then - you must instil in them the need to always put those with children first according to your logic.

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I find this quite a rude response. I assume you don’t have children?
I’m a nurse and I do work very unsociable hours, including Christmas. My children are very aware the world doesn’t revolve around them.
I’m just trying to explain that children should come before work when possible. My point was badly made. If they’re sick and my choices are to care for them or take a day off (it’s rare), I will choose them.

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 11:14

AutumnNamechange · 19/12/2023 10:54

I just fail to see how a childless woman can complain about other women caring for her children and putting them first at Christmas

My mum was a midwife and often worked at Christmas - I didn't once think she didn't put us first in her life or care about us - what a ridiculous thing to say. It was also a good lesson in the world not revolving around us. I hope that if your children grow up to not have children that you won't expect them to spend Christmas with you then - you must instil in them the need to always put those with children first according to your logic.

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The magic of Christmas is all about young children, surely people see that? If a kind colleague offers to swap a shift so young children can wake up Christmas morning with their parents, wouldn’t everyone accept that swap?
I know when mine are older I will repay the favour. Your point about my children not having children and working every Christmas was ridiculous!

Lifeasiknowitisout · 19/12/2023 11:55

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 09:40

I’m afraid you’re totally wrong. The article was entirely true, I’m proud of speaking out, and the overwhelming response has been support towards me. The article has gone viral, I’m receiving messages from all over the world agreeing with me, and was invited onto BBC’s Woman’s Hour yesterday to debate it, where I received a warm welcome and an outpouring if support. So I’m sorry to break it to you, but even mums the world over are supporting me and the conversation as I try to bring about change, equality and fairness for all in the workplace. Most mums are recognising that this important conversation will ultimately benefit them too 🙂.

As has been discussed at length. Your article wasn’t factual.

You stated many things that were inaccurate and it’s been established that your lack of knowledge of employment rights and your employer being pretty awful was actually to blame.

As I said, I do believe there are entitled parents. And there employers who try and strong arm staff who don’t have children on to covering. But while I agree on some aspects, you admitted you edited down and took other detail out to fit its purpose. Its purpose was an advert and you took aim at working mothers to get your advert traction.

and with all due respect, people are less likely to email you directly to tell you, you are wrong. You came here and joined a discussion already happening which is why people are discussing it.

There’s absolutely no way you can be expected to make things better for both sides while attacking one. Especially, when your story used for the attack is clearly one of a poor employer and your lack of knowledge.