To think this is a case of sour grapes?

[Diaria]

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums….

Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship.

She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time.

Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way like total exhaustion but I digress…

She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!!

Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss.

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

https://mol.im/a/12860533

Good information and noted, thanks. It does seem to be an employer issue in my case, and possibly in the cases of the hundreds of similar stories I’ve received, so a blanket policy would definitely even the playing field and make for more harmonious teams.

Exactly. It’s subjective.

i have been a manager for almost 20 years at various levels. I have seen entitlement come from all sorts of people. Being a good manager isn’t easy.

But you think it’s justified for you to make judgements about women who have children based on your experience. But when people make judgements about those who don’t, it’s hurtful and upsetting to you.

You are partaking in the same behaviour you are complaining about.

Do articles about how employers treat non parents without attacking working women. Talk about the fact that society’s obsession with making women take on more caring responsibilities has a negative know k on impact on many people in the work place.

Talk about how employers in retail exploit all their workers, especially at Christmas. Arrange to to talk directly to employers and industries about how they often push more expectations onto non parents.

How so many don’t support managers and how it causes culture problems in the work place.

All that I would support. Attacking another group entirely and causing a bigger divide, then saying people doing the same back are being hurtful and they shouldn’t do it isn’t helping.

It is however driving more people to your FB page. Which is fine. But it’s not helping the actual issue.

I asked my company if I could have unpaid leave aka a sabbatical...the answer was no because they had to take into account the maternity leave which they couldn't predict. That's the only thing that annoys me, when my colleagues moan about mat pay, but still can afford to take a year off and have two children in 3 years and it still counts as part of their work experience as in "have 6 years experience" even though 4 worked". Whereas those without children get no paid leave off and if they do in other companies those with children would still be able to have it too.
I know someone who asked to work 4 days a week (on reduced pay) and was refused, she then made the same request under parental leave application and got it as her child was under 18, her DD was 16 years old...

The legal requirement is very clear - it's only for emergencies, doesn't need to be paid, has to be reasonable and applies to any dependent rather than being specific to children. You seem to be advocating for something that already exists and you just weren't aware of:

https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants

I did know! We didn’t have a dependent's leave quota in place. On our timesheet the only option was parental leave. There wasn’t even a dependent’s leave option! It just wasn’t a thing. The company was v closed and dealt with things so privately they honestly didn’t even have that policy in the handbook. And I didn’t have anyone in my team caring directly for anyone other than kids in the whole time I was there.

Yep! I asked if I could go down to 4 days and was told no way! Yet all the mums were very part-time, literally one or 2 days a week and that was absolutely fine.

Your company applied parental leave incorrectly.

Parental leave needs to be taken in week blocks unless your child is disabled. And it’s a limited amount per year.

You can’t use it to reduce down to 4 days for prolonged periods or permanently.

Likely she actually got 4 days though a flexible working request. And an employer can’t grant it to one person and not someone else solely on the basis of being a parent. If they did, they applied it incorrectly and anyone who doesn’t have kids could object if their was rejected on those grounds.

See even that is woolly - no set amount, doesn’t say paid or unpaid. This is exactly what I was saying. I get case by case basis but it means it’s unclear where we all stand.

I have written articles about so many different topics over the years, from all different perspectives, and had them printed in many publications. It just so happens this most recent one has gone viral. I will definitely continue writing about all different topics, including some you mention.

Did you submit a formal working request?

Were other people in the company working at your level doing 4 days?

When/if the formal request was rejected did you appeal or proof that other people at your level were able to work 4 days and the only difference was that there were parents?

What was the official reason it was refused?

its the same for anyone with any dependents. It’s not in favour of those with children and your father don’t have to live with you.

You not knowing your rights or the rights of your staff is not the fault of working mums.

No, stupidly I just spoke to my line manager and she discouraged me from formally applying, saying it’d never get approved as managers must do full time. I did get it approved in my previous company though and it worked really well, and I told her that…but she wouldn’t hear of it so I didn’t pursue it.

And how that is the fault of working mothers?

Some roles do have to be full time and that would be the case whether you had children or not.

Again, that’s your manager who was a bad manager.

Not the fault of women who happen to have kids. It’s not that you weren’t allowed. You didn’t apply for it. And you manager might have scared you off it. Bad management and you not understand your rights.

Look, I support ensuring that people with out kids are not disproportionately impacted by those that have kids. Some parents are entitled. I do not doubt.

However everyone one of your issue comes from your employer not training you in people management, you not finding the information independently and nor being aware of your rights or the rights of your staff.

You also have to keep up on the changes when you manage people. I haven’t had someone on my teams going on maternity since I had my uoungeat15 years ago. I now have someone pregnant on my team so sort advice from our HR and looked into it myself. To make sure I was up to date and covered myself and ensured they got everything they required.

When an older woman had to look after her father, I did the same.

If you want to change it, you need to understand the employment law and advice around the issue. Saying things like ‘I was refused 4 days working because I am not a parent, but actually never formally applied’ or ‘my father couldn’t be my dependent because he didn’t live with me’ and then just saying ‘well I didn’t know’ when someone points out it’s wrong, isn’t going to help you change anything.

and many of us, even mum’s would support. But not when you are blaming us for your employer being horrendous and you not independently finding out the information you needed for yourself. Because no change will come from that. It’s just making the divide deeper.

@Lifeasiknowitisout 👏👏👏

That's what the government information on all kinds of employment issues looks like: it sets out a legal requirement but how that is enforced and handled - particularly when things pass 'reasonable' is local policy and practice. E.g. https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave. Did you honestly spend 20 years in management and never even Google this stuff?

Absolutely. I mean, there are loads of inadequate parents living chaotic lives who cannot cope with their kids and not giving them any kind of a role model, yet “parents are more organised than those without children”.

Just to note as well: realistically you need to work within the labour market you're in. I would never, ever agree to someone working one day a week because it is so obviously more hassle than it's worth to manage someone who is so part-time. If that's how lots of your staff worked then there was either a need for it within your kind of work or you weren't getting enough candidates to only select those who could work suitable hours. That's tough, but again it's not the fault of those you employed to work those hours.

It’s also time out of the workplace with pay in order to do a something you have freely chosen to do because you want to for your own satisfaction and fulfilment. And the point about it benefiting society is irrelevant here, that is not why parents do it.

It’s also time out of the workplace with pay in order to do a something you have freely chosen to do because you want to for your own satisfaction and fulfilment.

And? Only women can give birth so what do you want to happen? Frankly I would have been delighted if I could have given that responsibility to my husband. But that's biology .....
it wasn't a holiday and I resented the time out of the workplace

And the point about it benefiting society is irrelevant here, that is not why parents do it.

I've never made that argument 🤷🏼‍♀️

completely off topic but why do we open shops on boxing day at all?
Regardless of anything else she said, she's right in that working late on Christmas Eve, then back in early on Boxing Day is no break for anyone, and it's completely unnecessary. If all the shops just stayed closed everyone would buy just as much reduced tat on the 27th.

@Lifeasiknowitisout I said that it’s not solely a management issue. Clearly it’s a management issue and I work somewhere with crap management, but management isn’t making the employees say or do those things in the first place.

Whilst I agree somewhat maternity is only paid because the country needs people replacing. It’s not given for any other reason. It’s not paid because the government just think it’s nice for parents to have sometime off.

It’s a payment specifically designed to try and keep birth rates up. Standard MAT pay is not fully pay and is a very small amount.

People having babies usually need to save up or cut right back when on MAT leave. If an employer chooses to offer enhanced pay? It’s because they want to increase the chance the employee goes back.

That is also the time that women take the biggest hit to their career and earning potential. I took very short mat leave. It’s not without negative impact.

It was applied incorrectly I suspect..the application for flex leave was rejected. I checked and it's 18 weeks taken as 4 weeks per year in week blocks and its unpaid, per child up to age 18. So my point is that a person without children doesn't get this, so it's this type of thing that I do find annoying.
Yes I could apply for flex leave but so can someone with children plus they get the above.

You are missing the point.

Negative people impact people in the work place disproportionately. No doubt there some knobheads. But they have been given the confidence to keep saying that and spread their think to people who can’t think critically. Because it wasn’t managed they feel brave enough to say and they have likely got others on board with their bullying.

Just like the author of the article was influenced by her own employer into thinking she couldn’t put a flexible working request in, or that her father couldn’t be a dependent and said it as though it’s facts will have influenced some people to believe dependency leave is only for children. Or that only parents can put in a flexible working request. They will believe because they read it and don’t think critically enough to actually see if it’s true.

Had the authors employer actually trained her, she wouldn’t have been telling the world she left her career due to working mums. She would be telling them she left because she needed to care for her father and they lied and told her he couldn’t be a dependant. Because her manager lied to her and told her she couldn’t put in a flexible working request. Because the company continually under staffed the store.

That’s why it’s a management issue. Management can’t stop someone being a knobheads inside their own head or in their life outside world they can stop it becoming a culture where it’s ok to be a knobheads in work. Had management been effective, you wouldn’t have many people saying many awful things.