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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is a case of sour grapes?

402 replies

Diaria · 14/12/2023 04:40

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums….

Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship.

She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time.

Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way like total exhaustion but I digress…

She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!!

Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss.

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

https://mol.im/a/12860533

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

Having often felt obliged to fill in for mums who called in sick, and having worked every Boxing Day for 20 years, Samantha Walsh, 47, handed in her notice at the end of October and has no regrets.

https://mol.im/a/12860533

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
SourSammy · 16/12/2023 08:59

I appreciate your feedback. I totally agree that it’s a wider issue re dads often not pulling their weight and the burden of childcare being on the woman. I’ve had some really good chats on LinkedIn in the last few days around this. Apparently Sweden is a world leader in balancing childcare between genders, so I’ve been learning a lot about that.

I’m here to learn and try to instigate change, in both the workplace and society in general, for better understanding and equity between parents and non-parents. That is my sole mission in life going forward. I have been running The Non-Mum Network for 6 years (as a Facebook group and some meet-ups) and never made a penny. It’s a passion project, born out of my own experiences. I’ve never made it about attacking working mums, it’s purely about raising awareness and acceptance for non-parents in society. That is all. The article may have been a bit inflammatory, but I guess that’s the only way to get a lively debate started. It’s gone viral and is all over the media, and we’re having this conversation, so it worked. Now I have a voice I will try to exact change, in a way that benefits us all, kids or not.

ChillysWaterBottle · 16/12/2023 08:59

This reply has been deleted

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:01

Oh right, thanks for that!

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:04

I think it’s awful a woman has come on her detailing her horrendously fertility/health experiences and her personal experiences in her career which affected her and the only response is basically ‘but what if some daily mail readers think mums get lots of time off’. And now being called names! I’d say I’m surprised but I’m not.

I’m sorry @SourSammy I cannot imagine what you’ve been through with your fertility/health but having helped a friend during something similar I know second hand how hard it can be to deal with the additional things like being treated unfairly at work and the comments people make and it’s heartbreaking to see never mind live.

willWillSmithsmith · 16/12/2023 09:06

I wish I knew who these companies are that let mums have as much time off as they want.

IncompleteSenten · 16/12/2023 09:11

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 08:21

Yes, that’s what I’m in talks with with various groups and organisations, to try and find a way to make things fairer for all concerned. Childless women do invariably get viewed as ‘less than’ by society, that’s not just me coming at it as someone with a traumatic past. It really is a thing. Since the article went live I’ve had honestly thousands of messages, emails, comments etc from women without kids the world over saying the same. 82% of women have children at some point, so it stands to reason that the remaining 18% can and do feel ostracised, exploited at work, belittled, looked down upon etc. It really is happening. I know mums have it tough too, it’s not a competition, but at least you are surrounded by other mums who can empathise and support you. We often just feel lonely and misunderstood, and that nobody really cares about those without kids. This is not a pity party, not at all, I’m just trying to understand mums better and get you to understand how we feel too.

Good.
You'd be entitled to a 'pity party' even if it was one! Which it's not. Employers need to value all their staff more and balance all needs instead of pitting them against one another.

Don't be part of the fight against women, we shouldn't be attacking each other. We should all be together and putting the blame where it actually belongs.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:11

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 08:59

I appreciate your feedback. I totally agree that it’s a wider issue re dads often not pulling their weight and the burden of childcare being on the woman. I’ve had some really good chats on LinkedIn in the last few days around this. Apparently Sweden is a world leader in balancing childcare between genders, so I’ve been learning a lot about that.

I’m here to learn and try to instigate change, in both the workplace and society in general, for better understanding and equity between parents and non-parents. That is my sole mission in life going forward. I have been running The Non-Mum Network for 6 years (as a Facebook group and some meet-ups) and never made a penny. It’s a passion project, born out of my own experiences. I’ve never made it about attacking working mums, it’s purely about raising awareness and acceptance for non-parents in society. That is all. The article may have been a bit inflammatory, but I guess that’s the only way to get a lively debate started. It’s gone viral and is all over the media, and we’re having this conversation, so it worked. Now I have a voice I will try to exact change, in a way that benefits us all, kids or not.

I didn’t say you made money of your FB page.

The article clearly states that you are starting a website. The more people on your Facebook group the more people you have to directly advertise your website to. The whole point of the article was to send people to your fb page. It’s a solid plan.

The issue is you did it by attacking working mothers. You didn’t talk about how you want to make things better for no parents.

You can say ‘that’s how debates are started’ to justify the fact that you attacked working mothers and blamed them for leaving your career, as an advert. You left your career because you didn’t want to work retail anymore. Because alot of what you described would happen even if all the women that worked for you didn’t have kids.

Saying it’s ok to target a group of people just to get debates started is still attacking another group. A debate coming from it doesn’t make it a good thing.

Own what you did. You and SB came up with an article that attacked women to self promote. But don’t come along saying ‘oh but that’s not what i intended’. It absolutely was. As you proved with your acknowledgement that it’s inflammatory.

Doing it then saying ‘that’s not how it was meant to come across’ is disingenuous and manipulative.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:13

willWillSmithsmith · 16/12/2023 09:06

I wish I knew who these companies are that let mums have as much time off as they want.

They don’t.

Clearly @SourSammy didn’t know how to manage this issue and she didn’t get any support from her employer. Again, the companies issue for lot ensuring their managers knew what they were doing and had the support they needed.

But that could have advertised her FB page.

ElaineMBenes · 16/12/2023 09:15

I’ve never made it about attacking working mums, it’s purely about raising awareness and acceptance for non-parents in society. That is all. The article may have been a bit inflammatory, but I guess that’s the only way to get a lively debate started. It’s gone viral and is all over the media, and we’re having this conversation, so it worked. Now I have a voice I will try to exact change, in a way that benefits us all, kids or not.

Did the article accurately represent what you said/wrote or did the DM make it more inflammatory?

As a researcher and academic who specifically focuses on women's career development I feel this article does more harm than good. The 'debate' you've created isn't the one we need to be having imo.

I'd be interested in how you plan to use your voice and what changes you are hoping to make?

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:18

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:13

They don’t.

Clearly @SourSammy didn’t know how to manage this issue and she didn’t get any support from her employer. Again, the companies issue for lot ensuring their managers knew what they were doing and had the support they needed.

But that could have advertised her FB page.

On Mumsnet, reddits uk legal advice subreddit and Facebook I’ve seen 5 separate posts this week about companies making childfree/childless people work to cover parents who get time off, aren’t made to cover for anyone else and similar, so it does happen quite a lot. If you just google it you’ll find lots of childfree/childless people and also parents of adult children complaining about this very thing.

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:20

I do own it, absolutely. Everything I said in the article was 100% true. I wouldn’t have put my face and name to it if it wasn’t. And the thousands of messages from other non-mums thanking me for speaking their truth reassures me that it was a positive thing to do.
I left the job because I was sick of being exploited by both the company and mums. That is the absolute truth. I’m not attacking all working mums, just calling out the things that happen on a daily basis the world over where mums expect priority and preferential treatment. I’m not making it up! I’ve also had a LOT of messages from mums supporting me, saying they are sick of being exploited by OTHER MUMS, usually of younger kids than theirs. The overwhelming response has been positive towards me and the issues raised, by mums and non-mums alike. I was out last night with 10 mum friends and they wholeheartedly support me too.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:24

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:18

On Mumsnet, reddits uk legal advice subreddit and Facebook I’ve seen 5 separate posts this week about companies making childfree/childless people work to cover parents who get time off, aren’t made to cover for anyone else and similar, so it does happen quite a lot. If you just google it you’ll find lots of childfree/childless people and also parents of adult children complaining about this very thing.

That’s not we are talking about.

We are talking about companies allowing parents unlimited time off.

i have said I am sure some shit companies that make only non parents cover. That doesn’t mean they allow parents unlimited time off.

JustAMinutePleass · 16/12/2023 09:24

I went through an infertility battle and had a single child really late in life. Before I took my own mat leave I had to support all the other leaves - we had many women having 2-3 back to back mat leaves too before leaving. Women who go on multiple maternity leaves don’t often realise how hard it is for others in the team to support their work. Usually the most complex stuff gets handed out to the highest performers who are already incredibly busy while mat cover only covers the basics (if it’s even hired).

Brexile · 16/12/2023 09:24

Diaria · 14/12/2023 07:13

@FrangipaniBlue

I have disabled DC which wasn’t a choice… a bit frazzled after little sleep so probably why the article touched a nerve.

To various - not resentful of women without kids, just feel they are really very privileged and free in some ways (though if they want kids that’s another story). And I have no idea who Samantha Brick is, but I will know in future! 😂

YABU for falling for "divide and conquer" tactics. This is really about crap working conditions in retail rather than about childed/childfree women taking advantage of each other - in some industries, we're all being taken advantage of.

YABU too for feigning ignorance of Samantha Brick. You're clearly just jealous of her beauty. 😉

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:27

Thank you, I appreciate that. It astounds me how many mums know a non-mums terrible fertility struggles yet constantly say so many staggeringly insensitive things to us. Even if they know we’re childless not by choice we get called selfish, immature, not proper adults, incapable of ‘true’ love etc. It’s a lifelong struggle to be understood.

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:30

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:24

That’s not we are talking about.

We are talking about companies allowing parents unlimited time off.

i have said I am sure some shit companies that make only non parents cover. That doesn’t mean they allow parents unlimited time off.

Some do though, that’s absolutely part of those people’s complaints, the parents are taking time off work and they’re expected to cover and the parents face no repercussions no matter how much time they have off because it’s for their children.

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:30

Thank you for acknowledging this. I’ve heard a lot from mums who had kids later in life who have said the same. They’ve seen it from both sides and can see where we’re coming from. Congrats on finally getting your longed-for child ☺️.

ElaineMBenes · 16/12/2023 09:32

@SourSammy I'd like to unpick this then ....

I haven’t worked since and it is only possible because I’ve been saving £500 a month since the pandemic, building up a nice little nest egg. Childless women need to be prudent like this because there isn’t any equivalent to paid maternity leave for us.

You decided to quit your job and use your savings to fund this....yet you are complaining about having to use savings because you aren't entitled to maternity leave.
The two situations are not comparable and this a ridiculous thing to say.

The issues you experienced are primarily due to the sector you chose to work in and poor management.
You will get messages of support because poor management and long hours aren't exclusive to the retail sector.

IncompleteSenten · 16/12/2023 09:32

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:30

Some do though, that’s absolutely part of those people’s complaints, the parents are taking time off work and they’re expected to cover and the parents face no repercussions no matter how much time they have off because it’s for their children.

I hope their complaints are aimed towards the employers rather than the employees.

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:33

I’m not feigning ignorance of Sam. We wrote the piece together. It was initially a much longer piece covering other topics too but it was edited to fit the page so some was edited out, which we had no control over.

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:36

IncompleteSenten · 16/12/2023 09:32

I hope their complaints are aimed towards the employers rather than the employees.

They don’t complain to their employer because nothing is done. They’re just complaining online or asking for legal advice but there’s nothing you can do except leave and hope the next workplace is better. Then you get the complaint from the other side which I saw a few days ago where a woman was posting to say she had to work Christmas because her colleagues with no children had left, so now everyone had children and had to work on a rota system now but she couldn’t get childcare. The world of work as a whole doesn’t work for people as a whole. In an ideal world everyone would take off as much time as they needed but no more, all non essential businesses would close for Christmas and all essential employees would work Christmas on a fair basis but unfortunately for everyone I don’t think that will happen and everyone is just left struggling.

Africa2004 · 16/12/2023 09:37

I thought exactly the same!! She’s bitter and taking it out on parents. I’m a nurse and we do alternate working Xmas but often people without young children offer to swap in kindness (I always did pre children) but no expectation.
Also, how dare she say part timers are not committed. I’ve found they are & less burned out.
Weird a day in retail two days before Xmas meant she was too tired to enjoy the day!

Starryeyedsurprises · 16/12/2023 09:39

Africa2004 · 16/12/2023 09:37

I thought exactly the same!! She’s bitter and taking it out on parents. I’m a nurse and we do alternate working Xmas but often people without young children offer to swap in kindness (I always did pre children) but no expectation.
Also, how dare she say part timers are not committed. I’ve found they are & less burned out.
Weird a day in retail two days before Xmas meant she was too tired to enjoy the day!

It’s horrible that she has posted here what she’s gone through and you call her bitter. I think if I’d been through that I’d be ‘bitter’ as well!

Brexile · 16/12/2023 09:40

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:33

I’m not feigning ignorance of Sam. We wrote the piece together. It was initially a much longer piece covering other topics too but it was edited to fit the page so some was edited out, which we had no control over.

Sorry Sammy, the "feigning ignorance" comment was a joke directed at the OP, not at you, because she said she didn't know who Sam Brick was. I was referencing the once-notorious article she wrote about the advantages and pitfalls of being a very attractive woman. She's a very good writer and I follow her on SM.

Anyway, thanks for starting a very interesting discussion. I don't really have a dog in this race because I had kids early and didn't work until they were older, so child-related absences have almost never been an issue. I have however had childless friends who have felt unappreciated in the workplace, so this is definitely worth highlighting. Best of luck with your new venture.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 16/12/2023 09:45

SourSammy · 16/12/2023 09:20

I do own it, absolutely. Everything I said in the article was 100% true. I wouldn’t have put my face and name to it if it wasn’t. And the thousands of messages from other non-mums thanking me for speaking their truth reassures me that it was a positive thing to do.
I left the job because I was sick of being exploited by both the company and mums. That is the absolute truth. I’m not attacking all working mums, just calling out the things that happen on a daily basis the world over where mums expect priority and preferential treatment. I’m not making it up! I’ve also had a LOT of messages from mums supporting me, saying they are sick of being exploited by OTHER MUMS, usually of younger kids than theirs. The overwhelming response has been positive towards me and the issues raised, by mums and non-mums alike. I was out last night with 10 mum friends and they wholeheartedly support me too.

So why say the article was to get fairness for both mums and non mums.

You say mums exploit you? Really? Exploit? You say you recognise the unfairness in society that mum are expected to pick up most childcare and appear to sympathise and say mums exploited you.

Where in the article did it say that the main problem was that company didn’t staff your store correctly, give you the tools to manage people calling in sick all the time, didn’t support you. Or had expectations that were exploitative especially at Christmas? Wouldn’t it have been better to call out the companies that are doing this? Why not call out your employer?

The only way things change is if employers change. Which is why I am ensuring it happens in our company and will do the same when I move to the next.

I actually know someone who worked for the same store. They are abysmal. But that article isn’t changing anything where the change needs to happen

There is not a chance in 30 years of retail you never came across someone who called in sick on key days, didn’t pull their weight, called in sick because they couldn’t be bothered that also didn’t have kids.

Your issue is with people who take jobs knowing they can’t work as expected and your company policy and expectations and support of you managing them.

So again, don’t come here pretending it wasn’t meant as an attack on working mothers and you just want fairness for all women. You, purposely, attacked a group of women for self promotion. Don’t come here and think you must be more intelligent that mn users and can convince them you don’t mean for it to come across that way and manipulate them into believe evil working mums are out in their support groups figuring out how to exploit non parents. As I said, I am sure there are plenty of entitled parents. But I am also sure there are plenty of entitled non parents as well, because I have seen it myself.

There is no way this makes anything better. That wasn’t your intention. It maybe you eventual intention with your website. But Your intention with this article was to attack a group of women to create click bait, for your own gain. If anything it creates more of a divide.

you aren’t owning it. You are kind of owning it. Because it’s based on actual events but loosely. But denying your intention. You wrote and article with an elbowed women hater to drive people to your FB page so you can advertise your website. It’s really that simple.

It’s like me saying over 50s ruined my career because they are often caring for older people and a few of them have been entitled and manipulated their care responsibilities. So therefore people over 50 exploit me.