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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that if you’re the white parent of a mixed race child in the U.K., you should educate yourself about race issues and racism?

237 replies

Yabberwocky · 12/12/2023 21:56

Just that, really. You should make an active and consistent effort to inform yourself, try to understand what your child might be dealing with, recognise microaggressions, that sort of thing.

I’ve been musing about my own childhood and upbringing. Wondered what people thought.

OP posts:
wjpa · 14/12/2023 14:56

Cutting the hair of a little kid is very different to not assisting a teenager to do what they want with their hair and using the appropriate products/hairdresser though, isn't it?

Carrotmouse · 14/12/2023 15:04

I don’t think anyone has a human right to ‘products’ and I think blocking a teenager from going to the hairdresser is extremely odd and possibly racist (ie not in the category of white mothers who just need a bit of education).

With little kids it’s fine to give them a very short, practical (boyish) haircut until they are old enough to have a strong opinion (and can do most of the care themselves), but I’d probably draw the line at a fully shaved head. This is what people did with girls in the 1970/80s.

Bature · 14/12/2023 15:16

wjpa · 14/12/2023 14:56

Cutting the hair of a little kid is very different to not assisting a teenager to do what they want with their hair and using the appropriate products/hairdresser though, isn't it?

The same parent did both things. You then rocked up with ‘I’m uncomfortable with parents being judged’ and ‘I cut my kid’s hair, too’.

If you recognise that the situations are dissimilar, then you’ve answered your own questions.

Bature · 14/12/2023 15:20

Carrotmouse · 14/12/2023 15:04

I don’t think anyone has a human right to ‘products’ and I think blocking a teenager from going to the hairdresser is extremely odd and possibly racist (ie not in the category of white mothers who just need a bit of education).

With little kids it’s fine to give them a very short, practical (boyish) haircut until they are old enough to have a strong opinion (and can do most of the care themselves), but I’d probably draw the line at a fully shaved head. This is what people did with girls in the 1970/80s.

In the examples given, a teenager was blocked, her hair was chopped off well after she was able to have a strong opinion and she’s still being made fun of by her family about her hair. But, according to you, this isn’t a big deal.

Angrycat2768 · 14/12/2023 15:20

itsmyp4rty · 13/12/2023 13:25

I would teach them all the positives about their culture and to be proud of it and to feel secure in themselves no matter what others think or say - but to know who they can talk to if they have any problems or are unsure about anything.

For me I think teaching them that they will probably be effected by racism and that they are likely to face prejudice and discrimination because of who they are is just going to make them feel unsafe and like they are already on the back foot, already a victim.

I wouldn't do that to my disabled child despite him facing similar challenges so I wouldn't do it a mixed race child.

As añ Asian parent of mixed race children, I feel like this also. Maybe it's different because my children don't look Indian and are often mistaken for Spanish/ South American children. They have experienced "stupidity" racism like people assuming that they and their friend who is mixed race Black and White were brothers because they were the only Brown kids in the class etc. But I don't want my children thinking they can't do something or that they will find something impossible to do because everyone is racist and looking put for microaggressions everywhere they look. And yes, the amount of times me or the kids have had to pull my Indian mother up on frankly racist behaviour or silly comments about Black people, Chinese people etc is ridiculous. She's lived in London for 50 years but only really has friends from her own community. I've never experienced that open racism from white adults, and I live in that Mumsnet racism hotspot " Not London".

Westfacing · 14/12/2023 15:23

With little kids it’s fine to give them a very short, practical (boyish) haircut until they are old enough to have a strong opinion (and can do most of the care themselves),

I don't think it's fine for a girl to be given a very short haircut just because a parent doesn't learn how to manage afro hair.

As for shaving a girl's hair... jeez.

IDidntFloatUpTheLaganInABubble · 14/12/2023 15:25

I am and I do and I have whole heartedly supported them in challenging when they have faced blatant racism or microaggressions.

Original poster
Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 15:31

Angrycat2768 · 14/12/2023 15:20

As añ Asian parent of mixed race children, I feel like this also. Maybe it's different because my children don't look Indian and are often mistaken for Spanish/ South American children. They have experienced "stupidity" racism like people assuming that they and their friend who is mixed race Black and White were brothers because they were the only Brown kids in the class etc. But I don't want my children thinking they can't do something or that they will find something impossible to do because everyone is racist and looking put for microaggressions everywhere they look. And yes, the amount of times me or the kids have had to pull my Indian mother up on frankly racist behaviour or silly comments about Black people, Chinese people etc is ridiculous. She's lived in London for 50 years but only really has friends from her own community. I've never experienced that open racism from white adults, and I live in that Mumsnet racism hotspot " Not London".

Edited
Show quote history

But I don't want my children thinking they can't do something or that they will find something impossible to do because everyone is racist and looking put for microaggressions everywhere they look.

I genuinely don’t understand how anyone read the OP and thinks this is what I’m advocating.

OP posts:
glossylipps · 14/12/2023 15:55

My white English partner (I'm black) took our 8 month old baby to a children's hospital recently for a checkup, he later told me that the Asian Indian doctor was super unfriendly and cold and was purposely seeing other families before my partner and baby even tho they had been waiting for ages,she even had the gall to ask 'are you the father' 'what is the relation to this baby' and words of that affect. I told him that she is lucky I wasn't there as she would end up hating me. And he was like 'yeah your right Indian doctors really don't like seeing white and black mixed children' - sadly this hasn't been our only experience with Asian people in particular- he is very aware of racism especially when it comes to me and the kids, he is more open minded then a lot of white men his age.

DojaPhat · 14/12/2023 16:03

I think generally mixed people (Black & white) with a Black mother fare quite differently to mixed people with a white mother.

Original poster
Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 16:10

DojaPhat · 14/12/2023 16:03

I think generally mixed people (Black & white) with a Black mother fare quite differently to mixed people with a white mother.

God, yes. There’ll be outrage at this, but it is SO DIFFERENT! Growing up, the mixed kids with Black mums were always just so much more comfortable in their own skins. They knew about their mum’s culture, ate the food, listened to the music and some of them could speak the languages. The girls’ hair was always on point.

And, in my school/area at least, their parents were way more likely to be together and married.

I was EXTREMELY jealous. Still am. I’m sure you can tell. 🙃

OP posts:
Original poster
Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 16:11

DojaPhat · 14/12/2023 16:03

I think generally mixed people (Black & white) with a Black mother fare quite differently to mixed people with a white mother.

I’d like to start a thread about this, actually. But I don’t think it would go down very well.

OP posts:
Angrycat2768 · 14/12/2023 16:13

Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 15:31

But I don't want my children thinking they can't do something or that they will find something impossible to do because everyone is racist and looking put for microaggressions everywhere they look.

I genuinely don’t understand how anyone read the OP and thinks this is what I’m advocating.

Show quote history

I'm talking generally, and agreeing with a different poster. Obviously I can't talk about White mothers or mothers of children who need to learn about dealing with Afro hair because I am neither.

Hubblebubble · 14/12/2023 16:20

I'm a white mother of a black carribean and white British child. I feel like there's definitely an added layer of things to do to be a good mother. For me this means making sure my DC has childrens books with diverse characters and positive representations of black people. Little leaders are great for historical figures. Ditto with toys. I also make a huge effort to facilitate and maintain contact with his father and father's family, to the tune of expensive yearly plane tickets halfway across the world. I've obviously learned how to take care of his hair and to moisturise his skin regularly. I'm a big foodie and I've lived overseas, so I cook food from around the world anyway, but do make sure this includes food from his father's island. I've also taught him how to politely assert boundaries, please don't touch my hair.

DojaPhat · 14/12/2023 16:21

@Yabberwocky 100%!!!

Hubblebubble · 14/12/2023 16:26

If anyone has any suggestions as to anything else I could be doing, I'm all ears.

MCOut · 14/12/2023 16:55

DojaPhat · 14/12/2023 16:03

I think generally mixed people (Black & white) with a Black mother fare quite differently to mixed people with a white mother.

I guess because Mum is typically the primary carer so if hers is the black culture it’s easier to foster a positive experience of mixed children’s black heritage. I do feel like sometimes we let Dads off the hook though. I know black men who do a really great job of this, I just wish it was a more universal experience. Anecdotally, I’ve noticed families with Black Mum white Dad are generally better off and I wonder if this is something others agree with or if it has an impact.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 14/12/2023 16:58

Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 16:10

God, yes. There’ll be outrage at this, but it is SO DIFFERENT! Growing up, the mixed kids with Black mums were always just so much more comfortable in their own skins. They knew about their mum’s culture, ate the food, listened to the music and some of them could speak the languages. The girls’ hair was always on point.

And, in my school/area at least, their parents were way more likely to be together and married.

I was EXTREMELY jealous. Still am. I’m sure you can tell. 🙃

Show quote history

No outrage here, I can well believe what you're saying. However, I'm not sure if the white mothers are the only ones to be blamed for this...if a child has two parents, then they both need to step up and ensure that the kids are comfortable in their own skins, know about both sides of their heritage etc.

My DH has played an important role in ensuring that dd is comfortable in his culture and that she feels closely connected to it. Of course, it is important for me to educate myself and be supportive of that, but it cannot all be on me because I can't give her that authentic insight and experience.

This is partly a race issue but there is a gender issue as well, with lots of fathers of all races failing to do their equal share of childrearing.

Jellycats4life · 14/12/2023 17:13

This is partly a race issue but there is a gender issue as well, with lots of fathers of all races failing to do their equal share of childrearing.

Exactly.

It’s no surprise that the mother’s culture usually prevails. It’s always been that way.

Hubblebubble · 14/12/2023 17:15

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I couldn't agree more. It does seem that the parent who stays (nearly always the mother) is scrutinised whilst fathers are not held to account or are praised excessively for doing the bare minimum (anyone seen the satirical song, such a good dad?) A woman's place is always in the wrong.

phoenixrosehere · 14/12/2023 17:29

glossylipps · 14/12/2023 15:55

My white English partner (I'm black) took our 8 month old baby to a children's hospital recently for a checkup, he later told me that the Asian Indian doctor was super unfriendly and cold and was purposely seeing other families before my partner and baby even tho they had been waiting for ages,she even had the gall to ask 'are you the father' 'what is the relation to this baby' and words of that affect. I told him that she is lucky I wasn't there as she would end up hating me. And he was like 'yeah your right Indian doctors really don't like seeing white and black mixed children' - sadly this hasn't been our only experience with Asian people in particular- he is very aware of racism especially when it comes to me and the kids, he is more open minded then a lot of white men his age.

Had several experiences with this in my first pregnancy, made it unnecessarily stressful, was treated even worse during l&d, resulted in DS1 being blue and not breathing which wasn’t disclosed until months later. I did report them, hospital found no medical reasons for what was done (I was coerced into an induction) but no apology from the doctors themselves.

I had never experienced this nor any of my family members until I moved to the UK and was surprised when I was talking to another Black friend here that she and others had similar experiences.

daytriptovulcan · 14/12/2023 17:44

I agree

AnonnyMouseDave · 14/12/2023 18:07

Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 13:02

Is there an argument you are looking at this the wrong way?

What way is that?

If you are white is there not an argument that you should not get into a mixed-race relationship because you can NEVER fully empathize with or support your future child and you should be aware enough about race to know that.

Not being able to fully empathise doesn’t mean you are incapable of educating yourself about racism and racial issues, which is what I think should happen.

but obviously many make an effort to learn and do a much better job than those who don't.

Precisely. So what is it you’re disagreeing with?

Show quote history

(1) You were effectively saying "if you're white and you have a mixed race child you should learn". I turned it round and said "if you know a bit about racism you should be able to work out you can never really know what racism feels like, therefore you can never fully support your mixed race child, so maybe you shouldn't have one?"

(2) I agree, but this is a bit like a period dignity officer... a man can learn all the facts and demonstrate empathy... but the job is UNDOUBTEDLY best done by a woman, just like a person of colour will always have a better insight into what a mixed race child might be going through than a white person.

(3) I am saying that in an ideal world no white parents would bring up mixed race children because they cannot have the insight a black or mixed race parent would have, however much they try to learn and educate themselves. Of course, I support mixed race relationships, and support their right to have kids, and it's best that the birst parents bring the child up... but none of that alters the fact that a POC is best placed to empathize with another POC re race issues.

Original poster
Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 18:24

AnonnyMouseDave · 14/12/2023 18:07

(1) You were effectively saying "if you're white and you have a mixed race child you should learn". I turned it round and said "if you know a bit about racism you should be able to work out you can never really know what racism feels like, therefore you can never fully support your mixed race child, so maybe you shouldn't have one?"

(2) I agree, but this is a bit like a period dignity officer... a man can learn all the facts and demonstrate empathy... but the job is UNDOUBTEDLY best done by a woman, just like a person of colour will always have a better insight into what a mixed race child might be going through than a white person.

(3) I am saying that in an ideal world no white parents would bring up mixed race children because they cannot have the insight a black or mixed race parent would have, however much they try to learn and educate themselves. Of course, I support mixed race relationships, and support their right to have kids, and it's best that the birst parents bring the child up... but none of that alters the fact that a POC is best placed to empathize with another POC re race issues.

Show quote history

(1) You were effectively saying "if you're white and you have a mixed race child you should learn". I turned it round and said "if you know a bit about racism you should be able to work out you can never really know what racism feels like, therefore you can never fully support your mixed race child, so maybe you shouldn't have one?"

By that premise, nobody should ever have kids of the opposite gender. Men will never truly understand sexism, so maybe they shouldn’t have daughters? Your kid might be gay and you’ll never understand that as a straight person, best not risk it and have no kids! It’s a nonsensical premise. You are not required to experience something to inform yourself sufficiently to provide support. Which is what is being asked here.

For points 2 and 3, please read the above again. Twice.

OP posts:
Original poster
Yabberwocky · 14/12/2023 18:26

Hubblebubble · 14/12/2023 16:26

If anyone has any suggestions as to anything else I could be doing, I'm all ears.

It sounds like you’re doing great. Does he have regular contact with/an opportunity to socialise with Black and mixed race kids? If not, that’s something you might want to look into.

OP posts: