Blazing row about Michael Jackson

[PLP432]

I know it sounds ridiculous on the face of it but hear me out.

I was in a shop with DP last night and they were playing Michael Jackson music. I commented that I don't like hearing his music as I can't get past everything he did. Yes, I know he wasn't convicted but he openly admitted to sleeping in bed with random children, showering together and whatever else.

DP said "we have different opinions on that, he's a really good artist" to which I replied something about Rolph Harris being a good artist and Jimmy Saville being a good fund raiser.

DP then goes on to say he doesn't think MJ did anything untoward with the children and he thinks it's all innocent and because he had a "childlike mind" due to not having a proper childhood.

I said that was no excuse and plenty of people have bad or unusual childhoods and don't groom children.

He was getting defensive and talking about how he was found not guilty in court, to which I pointed out how few rape and sexual abuse cases even make it to court let alone conviction.

I asked whether he'd listened to anything the men on Leaving Neverland said before he formed his opinion that MJ wasn't guilty of anything. He said no, and refused to look it up.

It descended into a row and I was very hurt by some of the things he said, as I have a history of child sexual abuse and rape - which he knows all about.

I asked him whether he would have gladly left our DS in the company of someone like MJ unsupervised and he took a while to answer before saying "I don't know"

I said how that concerned me from a safeguarding perspective to which he took huge offence, started shouting and told me to return all of the presents i'd bought him as he doesnt want them anymore, the immature dickhead.

Now we're not talking.

Was I being unreasonable here?

Op he hasn’t done anything wrong. And neither have posters. It is clear you’re struggling but picking fights and crying isn’t going to help. Please seek some counselling to help you process the trauma.

Perhaps . And I'm sorry about your trauma. But it is worth bearing in mind in future, that starting a thread on MN AIBU is not the best place to bring up a topic that you find so upsetting .

I was just pondering this issue the other day. There was an advert on the radio for the Michael Jackson musical. Could you imagine the outrage if we had ‘Jimmy Savile - the musical’ ?

I loved MJ’s music ( and still listen to it- I just tell myself it’s Quincy Jones I’m appreciating) but I don’t think it’s appropriate to make a musical celebrating his life.

it’s pretty obvious this man was an abuser who simply paid away the complaints.

Yes! It like he’s put his disgusting creepy eyes into her face. Very disturbing.

No one is bullying you OP.

You watched a documentary about abuse.
You then had an argument about it with your DP.
You then came onto MN to talk about it even more.

I’m not really sure what you wanted from this thread.

Your DP wasn’t in the wrong.

If you are struggling then perhaps some counselling would help, as it’s very possible the documentary has triggered some buried feelings.

In future I think it would be a good idea to not watch documentaries about child abuse or have discussions about it, especially if the person has been found not guilty.

I've had counselling. I've had EMDR therapy. I've had ACT therapy. I've spent thousands on it.

I don't think any amount of therapy prepares you for your child's father smugly asserting that if somebody isn't found guilty in court then they are innocent of the crimes they are accused of.

Edited to add -

Especially when he knows that none of your abusers ever got as far as court, let alone being convicted.

Regardless of DH's internal view, he should've been more sensitive because of your history (which IMO many viewers are ignoring, we should believe victims).

Personally I don't trust any adult who chooses to sleep with unrelated children they are not the caregivers for.

I wouldn’t have been so forthright about it, but @Universalsnail does have a point. I have several raw nerves and when my DP is at risk of hurting them I warn him very clearly and we do something harmless instead and talk when I’m less upset (he’s also allowed to do this). It doesn’t help anyone to have a huge argument where you get offended.

c4 did their experiment on destroying art: the show came to the conclusion that the personal lives of artists matter BUT if they were an artist of such outstanding work, the work should still stand because otherwise it would be a loss to society. The art retains its value to society thus we should still value the art but do so whilst acknowledging the actions of that person were not ok. It forms part of the story of the creation of that art, but the art still stands in its own right.

In this sense thats ultimately the difference between Saville and MJ. Saville didn't offer society something unique that no one else could provide.

I think in a sense that means the OP and her husband aren't either necessarily right and aren't necessarily wrong.

I think the OP pushed it too far but her husband should be more aware too. I don't think he's a safeguarding risk.

Agreed

It does!

I haven’t seen Neverland, don’t know whether he was guilty of those crimes. If he was then that sickens me.

But despite that I still love his music

I mean William Mayne was a paedophile, Eric Gill committed sexually abused his DDs - I may have liked their works before I knew but like hell will I have anything to do with them now - they make me feel sick.

Ditto MJ. I was never a major fan as when I was a teen in the 80s he wasn’t cool, just weird, but I liked Billy Jean and the Jackson 5 70s stuff. But now - I won’t listen to him.

You either take a hard line against sexual abuse or you don’t. The fact he was so rich he could pay off his accusers instead of facing them in court may work for some people, but it doesn’t wash with me.

OP I understand your issue with what he said.

But I would put it down to low IQ and question whether he’s the right person for you.

Ditto. I couldn't stand MJ even before the allegations, and could never put my finger on why. Probably connected to the whole 'he's a child in a man's body' absolute bullshit.

OP, I get it. I'm not surprised this has upset you so much.

I've been thinking about it plenty today and I don't think we are right together at all. We are completely different people. He has hurt me plenty over the years with his lack of thinking before he speaks.

Oh OP I want to give you a big hug.

Im going to out the topic of MJ aside for this post.

I think a major issue here is you and DP are not intellectually equal. This is therefore frustrating for you.
You can’t debate or come to resolution with someone who isn’t on the same intellectual wavelength as yourself. So in the end you either end up having to gloss over it or give up your own convictions because you know arguing/debating will get you nowhere. It sounds like he doesn’t have the IQ to ever understand nuance or reason.

I’ve had these issues before with people and the frustration is enraging e.g:

Them: I bloody hate Jeremy corbyn
me: oh okay, why do you say that?
Them: he’s a prick
me: ok but why?
them: he just is.
-end of discussion -

Theres no reason, debate or anything of substance there. Just a viewpoint of no substance. Then when you try and put your view across that opposes their own they just deflect with insults or really stupid retorts that are on par with a small child. It’s so infuriating and frustrating. They want to have an opinion but don’t want to have any education on said opinion. It’s baffling.

This will grind you down long term and resentment will build.
also your relationship can never really go beyond being somewhat ‘superficial’ because you can’t delve any deeper with them.

I would seriously consider the relationship because it’s not something couples counselling can solve. It’s a fundamental and biological difference unfortunately.

also excuse any typos, I’m on my phone.

Oh no OP, so sorry it’s come to this- sometimes it’s just the straw that broke the camel’s back isn’t it? Take care of yourself X

You're entitled to have whatever threshold you want as a marker for who you want to be in a relationship with OP. Anything at all.
It sounds like it's important for you to be with someone who is minded to believe those making allegations. On here people have asked if they are being unreasonable to dump someone for far less and they're often told they can leave for any reason at all, or none.

As for separating the art from the artist, I understand the principle but personally I can't. I've got several cds I can't listen to anymore but also haven't thrown away. I know objectively I still like those songs, my tastes haven't changed, but I dislike the baggage around them more.

Thank you so much. You know, I think you have hit the nail right on the head with everything you have said. You have made me cry, albeit a productive and eye opening cry!

It's hard for me to convey the intellectual disparity on somewhere like mumsnet as unfortunately some posters have a habit of using your words against you and painting you black with them, but we truly are worlds apart intellectually (and I'm certainly not mensa material myself - In fact I left school at the age of 12 so I'm not remotely well educated. I just happen to like books, researching topics, politics etc)

I'm not saying that to be cruel to/about him, although I'm sure some will come along and say that I am, but it's the truth and something he feels Inferior about. If I use a word like "articulated" for example which most people can understand without issue - he doesn't know what it means and accuses me of using "big" words to patronise him. I have to dumb myself down to meet him on his level constantly.

The example you gave about the Jeremy Corbyn exchange is EXACTLY what you can expect to hear from him and we have had many, many exchanges just like it.

As you said there is no reason, debate or anything of substance there. There is never any resolution to arguments, only ever (as you rightly said again) glossing over the issues because he doesn't have the capacity to understand nuance or reason.

The relationship does indeed feel superficial and without depth. I'm somebody who benefits from talking through my feelings so I have opened up to him plenty over the years in order for him to better understand me but he never has anything to come back with, he's just itching to get up and go do something else.

He doesn't ever have anything of any substance to share with me either, it's all superficial, the amount of times he has gone on and on about his mums dogs or his dads pigeons, for example.

In 2021 I got the news that an abuser had died, 'D'P thought that would automatically mean I'd "get back to my old self" AKA that my sex drive would improve instantly, because apparently that's the natural conclusion when your abuser dies 🙄 He had no understanding of the complex emotions that would arise from something like that, or how it wasn't the cure for the problems with intimacy we'd been having (that I feel are a direct result of the communication problems we have and his childishness)

A longterm friend passed away last year and after hearing the news I was fondly recounting a nice memory with them to DP. He didn't even acknowledge anything I said, he just changed the subject to point out a car or something similarly irrelevant. It's like the lights are on but nobodies home.

He thinks Richard Branson is "the pickle man" ffs 🤯

We've been together since 2018 and I cannot believe how blinkered I have been to just how incompatible we are on every level.

I'm sorry for rambling, its just so cathartic to have somebody articulate so eloquently exactly what the root of our problem is.

If you're not a therapist then you would make a really good one!

I know what I need to do. Thank you ❤️

I don't think it was that clear. Why were the parents so happy to allow their young, naive children to sleep at his house?

I have boys around the age the he would be interested in and if either of them asked to stay in a middle aged man's house by themselves, who isn't family and who essentially I have no clue about, it would be absolutely not. No matter who that person was. I'm sure 99% of parents on here would think the same. Either they really were that stupid or were deliberately doing it for the money.

He thinks Richard Branson is "the pickle man" ffs

I'm sorry, this made me laugh. Not at your situation, just at that.

I think you know the score now, OP. You'll be happier once you're back in a life that's true to you, and you'll be free to meet someone who doesn't think Richard Branson created a famous chutney...

I don't think it was that clear. Why were the parents so happy to allow their young, naive children to sleep at his house?

Because he was a global star who groomed the whole families and they were as naive as some of the posters on this thread.

Richard Branston Pickle 🤣 I’m sorry but that’s really funny, what an absolute twit he is!

You don’t trust his judgment

you know what you should do