Blazing row about Michael Jackson

[PLP432]

I know it sounds ridiculous on the face of it but hear me out.

I was in a shop with DP last night and they were playing Michael Jackson music. I commented that I don't like hearing his music as I can't get past everything he did. Yes, I know he wasn't convicted but he openly admitted to sleeping in bed with random children, showering together and whatever else.

DP said "we have different opinions on that, he's a really good artist" to which I replied something about Rolph Harris being a good artist and Jimmy Saville being a good fund raiser.

DP then goes on to say he doesn't think MJ did anything untoward with the children and he thinks it's all innocent and because he had a "childlike mind" due to not having a proper childhood.

I said that was no excuse and plenty of people have bad or unusual childhoods and don't groom children.

He was getting defensive and talking about how he was found not guilty in court, to which I pointed out how few rape and sexual abuse cases even make it to court let alone conviction.

I asked whether he'd listened to anything the men on Leaving Neverland said before he formed his opinion that MJ wasn't guilty of anything. He said no, and refused to look it up.

It descended into a row and I was very hurt by some of the things he said, as I have a history of child sexual abuse and rape - which he knows all about.

I asked him whether he would have gladly left our DS in the company of someone like MJ unsupervised and he took a while to answer before saying "I don't know"

I said how that concerned me from a safeguarding perspective to which he took huge offence, started shouting and told me to return all of the presents i'd bought him as he doesnt want them anymore, the immature dickhead.

Now we're not talking.

Was I being unreasonable here?

@PLP432 Oh thank you OP.

I think the problem with any forum is that everything is taken at face value and there’s hardly ever any ‘reading between the lines’ so to speak.

If you’d posted about the intellectual disparity instead of this specific (and very serious) argument then you’d have gotten different responses. It may be worth posting another thread about this specific issue of intellectual incompatibility so it doesn’t get railroaded and clouded by any specific argument that takes the thread off topic.

I have been in a similar relationship myself so I immediately understood your view point. It’s not that your DP doesn’t agree with you about things that is infuriating, it’s that they can’t back up their opposition with anything other than ‘it’s my opinion’, and you want to scream ‘but why is it your opinion?! How did you come to that conclusion looking at the evidence in front of you?!! Explain it to me! Let’s discuss this!’.

Whats even more infuriating is that you can have actual hard factual evidence proving their opinion is incorrect or based on falsehoods and they won’t even listen/acknowledge it. Like they want to remain stupid/ignorant through choice! This then adds to the anger.

You are stuck in a surface level superficial relationship with your DP. The connection can never get any deeper. He just does not have the capacity to go any deeper. You can’t fix it. Trust me I know, I’ve been there.

You also cannot depend on them emotionally/mentally for any kind of support. They won’t/cant understand anything other than obvious emotional pain e.g you parent dies, they know/understand you’ll be sad/in grief. But you witness a serious assault/incident that causes PTSD and they won’t understand as ‘nothing actually happened to you’.
So that’s that. End of support.

Im guessing the reason you ended up with him is because of his lower IQ in a way combined with your trauma. He probably seemed a ‘safe’ bet. No worries about him being a master manipulator or using your vulnerabilities/insecurities against you. No hidden agendas or worries of him being an evil genius plotting. Just a simple surface level relationship. What you see is what you get. In a way that’s comforting.
You know exactly where you stand. You also still get to remain in power and control of yourself/life. If you were to date someone of equal or greater intellect there can lie uncertainties and you have to take such a leap of faith to give your heart knowing they have the capacity and capabilities to destroy you.

It’s very complex. I really feel for you going through this as I have been there.

But you’re awake to this now. You have the power and knowledge to decide where to go from here.

You’re emotionally intelligent and know the score so I know you’ll do right by yourself either way.

The non-cancelling of MJ is bizarre. We were discussing this at work recently and a black colleague made a very good point that he thought potentially it was because MJ meant/means so much to the black community. He went on to say that because of how MJ was really the first black artist to not only straddle black/white music but end up being a black guy who dominated ALL music, he was beyond being a legend and that the black community just can't let go of that. That makes sense to me and makes sense of why he hasn't been cancelled.

He bloody should be though because he clearly was a child abusing sociopath. I grew up with his songs but since Finding Neverland I won't listen to even the tunes which bring me great joy and have good memories. I don't understand how anyone- on the face of it, without the cultural baggage mentioned above- could see that documentary and not believe those men.

I also think he hasn’t been cancelled because many don’t believe he is guilty and many refuse to believe

also he was so incredibly talented the most talented performer of his generation that lead the way for so many and has continued to influenced many many artists

For many they can separate the artist/performer and the person

I was 17 when the Jordy Chandler allegations came out. Even at 17 when I heard Jackson had shared a bed with boys he wasn't related to I remember thinking there was something really wrong. Then I saw a documentary where he was all over a boy, I think the one who eventually brought a court case, and cuddling him in a really age inappropriate way.

I don't see how anyone could look at Jackson's behaviour and conclude that he wasn't a paedophile. Also if despite all the evidence you persist in thinking he wasn't physically abusive towards children it really cannot be denied that he was emotionally abusive towards them. Treating them as if they were special, as if he was their best friend and then dumping them once they got too old. Horrible man.

Same reason parents let saville pick their 15 year olds up in his yellow sports car and take them out for the day.

same reason parents sent their boys to assist at mass.

same reason thousands of sports coaches were trusted with young girls and boys.

people don’t want to believe a teacher, priest, nurse or celebrity etc would take advantage of such a position of trust.

Two sports coaches I had as a kid are now in prison for child sexual abuse. They were trusted 🤷‍♀️

Does it even matter? The guy is fucking dead. He doesn't get anything from your husband singing along to his music.

I don't know if the allegations are true but I still enjoy his songs! Again, he's dead, so there you go.

Sad and Harris don't have any talent so nobody is going to listen/watch/absorb their content. I'm your op you described JS as a good fundraiser. A good fundraiser compared to a globally renowned musician and cultural icon.

I thought he was innocent for a long time, up until just recently and I'm still not 100% sure what I believe. It's not clear cut because he was an idol to millions of kids, especially teenage boys. Why did he have them stay over? Maybe because they asked and he didn't see the harm. In fact from what I read, it was Wade and/or Wade's mom pushing for a friendship with MJ who showed little interest. You can't compare to Savile or Harris or the rando down the street who have no appeal to kids. Now could MJ have taken advantage of the fact he had star struck fans begging to stay at Neverland-absolutely that's possible. Maybe your partner is just keeping an open mind though.

Yabu to start a fight over a dead guy you don't know. By all means discuss it but don't stop talking over it. It's silly.

You can’t be serious? Wade Robson was 5 years old when he met MJ. MJ invited him and his mum up to his hotel room after seeing him dance to one of his songs. He was 7 when the abuse started.

I’m going to give some posters the benefit of the doubt that they’re unintelligent rather than morally abhorrent.

How nice of you. That's how you and OP browbeat people into submission isn't it.

I grew up in the 80s, never admired MJ then, agree that he was a paedophile now.

He was never proven guilty, but there will always be a shadow of suspicion hanging over him.

In terms of who was close to him, it was always boys....always, and when they got to a certain age they were gone.

He had no attraction to women despite the obvious charade. Not aware of him having any relations with men either.

It looks fishy, and the allegations are there, but ultimately none of us know if anything happened. It couldn't be proven in court he did anything wrong.

He was an incredible performer, the biggest name on the planet at one point, and many are able to separate the talent from the person. "Man in the Mirror", "Dirty Diana", "Give in to Me", I still listen to these songs.

Six boys have accused him of sexual abuse publicly

Someone above said that he couldn't be proven by a court to have done anything wrong.

Jackson can be proven by his own admission to have done things that were wrong. His behaviour was indefensible. Seeking out boys of a certain age and starting these totally inappropriate relationships in which they went everywhere with him and slept in his bed with him night after night while he bought their parents expensive gifts. Then dumping them when they hit puberty. He's in many pictures hugging them and holding their hands. What 12 year old boy wants to do that?

Not sure why people don't want to believe the boys about the physical abuse. Seems overwhelmingly obvious to me. But just think of the emotional fallout of being singled out by this famous star, taken every where with him, made to feel special and then dropped.

I don't think the court system works at all well for victims of sexual abuse. Because normally these acts are not committed in front of cctv cameras. I think this is what upset the OP so much in the first place.

I mean Iisten to his music if you want. But at least try to do separate the man from the music thing and don't idolise Jackson himself.

Unfortunately even if MJ can be proven to have singled out young boys as special, rape and abuse cases overall are very difficult to prove, particularly since he’s dead so (crucially) can’t be taken to court again, cross-examined, forced to turn over any incriminating evidence. There’s the added factor that he was so loved at the height of his fame, although I always found his demeanor a little spooky and I was a teenager at the time! But unfortunately the arts are riddled with people who are morally dubious but incredibly talented. Luckily MJ didn’t make songs all about how much he liked little boys but I can understand how his songs might be triggering to some people. Anyway this thread isn’t about re-examining his guilt or innocence, but about the associations in OP’s mind. In a perfect world it would be easy to say to our DPs “I find this triggering, can we turn it off/go elsewhere/take other evasive action” but trauma makes you panicky and sometimes defensive and the DP wasn’t listening to her needs fully.

I think you’re right to worry wether he has the capacity to safeguard your children. If he isn’t alarmed by stories MJ was plying children with alcohol, sleeping in same bed and showering, i would see massive red flags. Yes MJ was a major music artist of his time. No he wasn’t a child in a man’s body, he was a fully grown man in a man’s body.

Plus they are the unintelligent ones.

Hmmm how “nice” or “intelligent” is it to blame a 5 year old for wanting to be friends with MJ only to end in abuse?

Anyone who thinks he wasn't a paedophile is delusional.

Proving that type of crime is very difficult indeed. Plus the US justice system is often not what it should be .... Look at the OJ Simpson trial.

He also paid off some boys/families.

His behaviour was never in any way in line with that of an adult-attracted man (hetero, gay or bi).

Your h is therefore delusional.

I'm not surprised that makes you wonder about him being your life partner, esp with your history.

Young boys in his bedroom alone, young boys being cuddled on his knee at awards ceremony, "Jesus juice", (alcohol), "duck butter" (his ejaculate), the identifying marks on his body they mentioned, one boy after another, dumped out of "favour" when they became young adults. No relationship with an adult that wasn't an obvious fake farce. "His" children procured from a hatchet faced employee as a surrogate and one of his doctors' as a sperm donor. His home set up as a kid fantasy land.

But it's all coincidental, no doubt.

Hmmm how “nice” or “intelligent” is it to blame a 5 year old for wanting to be friends with MJ only to end in abuse?

This is the browbeating pp was talking about

By the way, it's possible to be sceptical of claims whilst keeping a open mind that they could be true, nothing not nice or unintelligent about that

I think you were really out of order to tell your partner you had a safe guarding issue about him. If you really do, then you need to spilt up to protect your child, but I am going to assume you don’t mean it which case you should not have said it, that was below the belt.

I am amazed at the number of posters who are advising to turn a blind ear, he’s dead and wasn’t convicted blah blah….

. No conviction merely means lack of evidence not that the accused is innocent!

It’s a simple question.

It’s possible to be sceptical of so-called “scepticism” when the proponents are victim blaming children and defending an adult’s inappropriate behaviour. There’s nothing intelligent about that.

couldn’t agree more .