PIP

[Ostagazuzulum]

I know this is going to be controversial. That's not my intention.

I want to stress that I'm not having a go at anyone who gets benefits. I'm just curious about pip and how it's justified.

One of my friends today has told me that they were recently approved for pip in higher scale. Going to be getting around £700 a month apparently. She doesn't claim any other benefits. She has fibromyalgia. Her and her husband both have middle management full time jobs earning around £80k per year between the pair of them. They own their own home and she's very open about having around £12k in savings. Three children all of school age.

They're intending on using the money for holidays mostly.

I'm just baffled how it's justified.

She definitely suffers with the condition, can sometimes struggle with mobility. and you can see she's in pain. But what's the purpose of pip? Her condition isn't incurring any extra costs and isn't being spent on day to day help. Why do we have it for those circumstances?

The problem here imo is that's without PIP it is very hard to 'prove' you are disabled. The 'I'm registered disabled' is bullshit, there is no national register - some local councils I believe still stick your name on a list but there for their own purposes and won't help if you are trying to access a disabled space or service anywhere but with them.

You often find the criteria for proving disability will be if you are registered blind, claim PIP/DLA/Scottish equivalents or have a blue badge. I get adult disability payment in Scotland, I'm not blind and the council is batshit so they won't give me a blue badge (to park my motability car!) so the only way I can evidence disability is the fact that I get the benefit. My income isn't high but if it were there would be no change in the way I prove I'm disabled.

Isn’t it amazing how many people share all their financial affairs with their neighbours? Especially details like their spending on holidays?

Of course holidays are compulsory and a basic human right on MN. Unless you have so much as walked past a benefit office in the last five years.

Really?

So I should quit work and claim other benefits to access PIP? Go without private support treatments like neurophysio so my progressive neurological condition deteriorates faster? Then the state can fund my fulltime care! Awesome plan!

My PIP funds a cleaner, food supplements and neurophysio. It allows me to function without my husband becoming my carer instead of working. All of which keep me and my husband paying tax (and he's a higher rate tax payer, you're welcome).

Try and engage your thinking brain.

The “means test all benefits” wonks have never thought it through- it’s just ranting bloke in the pub “logic”.

Doing it every other/third day @TomeTome will increase the recovery time, as she can't just box it away in her head on the rest days. It'll still take her energy with brain processing power.

I agree with@Floralsofa

The other descriptor other pp have mentioned is not being able to move around/go out due to psychological distress. To get enhanced mobility, for the majority of days, her answers must have clciked with any of these options, atleast:

This:

Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant.

And this:

Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres.

OR

This:

Cannot plan the route of a journey.

And this:

Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided.

OR

Only this:

Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided.

OR:

Only this:

Cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, an assistance dog or an orientation aid.

OR

Only this:

Cannot, either aided or unaided, – (i) stand; or (ii) move more than 1 metre.

To be in a full time (I assume) management position and get enhanced daily living and mobility is interesting.

Anyone can get PIP if they meet the descriptors, regardless of their income and expenses though, although I think that should be reviewed. Disability benefits should be for people it actually affects the cost of their day to day lives (for the majority of days) and not just because you can claim it.

@Drdoomish it’s not easy but not impossible. I have filled out PIP and DLA forms and they are long but so is reading a book or learning how a new washing machine or tv works. Broken down into steps it’s possible to most things and disabled people tend to know that. She must pay her other bills or have someone who does.

Fibro could easily score points under 11 (planning and following the route of a journey) due to brain fog and effects of pain.

...

PIP regs also specify that you must be able to do an activity safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly, and within a reasonable time period, so if someone gets panic attacks when out alone, they may not meet the "safely" test for planning and following a journey, or if they can only walk slowly, or walk the relevant distance once and are then too knackered to do it again for a couple of days, they'll get awarded points

Yes but other things are considered.

One can't say that they can't plan a journey, for example, or suffer distress while out and about or are not able to walk more than 20m for the majority of days and are still able to go out and work full time, go on holidays, etc at least without clear evidence of support with these issues while doing so. Without support or aids, it can't be majority of days then if for the majority of days, they're still able to do things they can't do. So it isn't as clear-cut as just having these illnesses if they don't seem to affect you the majority of the time.

It isn't far-fetched to wonder how some people get it or get enhanced rates if you know them well enough to know some things about them that may clash with the descriptors.

Possibly, OP's friend has said that she has major adaptations and support at work and also her husband does everything/most things for her at home for the majority of the time at least. Still interesting to meet enhanced points.

[Disclosure: I have a few diagnosed disabilities both hidden and visible myself and also have dc with diagnosed disabilities. We finally applied and started receiving disability benefits since this year (first attempt) after living with these illnesses and conditions all our lives. So if anything, we've missed out on claiming what we're entitled to, so my posts aren't judging genuine claimants. I know the process all too well. I've also seen some fibbers. I won't hide that it happens].

I’ve honestly never met anyone I thought was fibbing to get pip, and know many eligible claimants. I find the forms deeply depressing but not impossible to fill out. It was fairly straightforward. Trying to access a blue badge on the other hand was shockingly hard work.

I’ve honestly never met anyone I thought was fibbing to get pip, and know many eligible claimants. I find the forms deeply depressing but not impossible to fill out. It was fairly straightforward. Trying to access a blue badge on the other hand was shockingly hard work.

I’ve honestly never met anyone I thought was fibbing to get pip, and know many eligible claimants.

I think a lot of the problem here lies with people's opinions of who should get PIP - I don't necessarily think the judgement comes from someone thinking a claimant is lying, just that they don't think you should get PIP if you are not a stereotypical disabled person- basically a wheelchair user.

I remember years ago a woman I Kew ranting about her sil getting a free car and there was 'fuck all wrong with her' - actually the sil had some quite bad back problems. Walked with a stick, attended regular medical appointments and was absolutely ticking the correct boxes for PIP. Her nasty sil just thought she was 'at it' because she could walk.

I suspect many people with a whole variety of conditions are judged the same, as is evident from the OP.

I have told no one I get ADP or that my car is motability (if they cared that much they can pay a small fee to check its tax band) but while I know my conditions are genuine and medically evidenced, I'm not willing to open myself up to judgement by othered because I can walk

Interestingly, I got a blue badge immediately after applying. The process wasn't difficult for me but I don't know if it was because I met the criteria to automatically qualify for a blue badge without additional information which I got from my PIP award. That said, I know these things can vary from person to person with how hard/easy it can be to get.

I agree that PIP forms can be fairly straightforward too, although soul-destroyingly stressful to go through and relay all that information. I needed to recover afterwards.

I completely agree. I just don’t tell anyone. But then I kind of wonder if by doing that I’m actually perpetuating the ignorance surrounding hidden disabilities because if people aren’t confronted with people like me then how will they ever learn? But then again; you can’t teach those who don’t want to learn…!

Motability cars are just rented though, you pay for them like anything else.

Yes but subsidised and you don't pay for some things like insurance, servicing and breakdown, and for some cars, MOTs too and maintenance for powered wheelchairs and scooters.

You also get to trade them and for a new car after x number of years and miles or something.

There are much benefits to having motability cars. Plus you 'pay for them' with your enhanced mobility benefit instead of receiving the money yourself, so you're not out of pocket. You get to save money and a lot of drama.

I think the only disadvantage is that you could lose the car at any time if you lose your enhanced award at any review. So it's basically not yours. A lot of people have to weigh that against the benefits.

Just for the record, I have reported this thread to Mumsnet mods. Really depressing how ablist, ill informed and goady posts are allowed to stand. Not saying PIP shouldn't be discussed but people with disabilities have enough to deal with without this.

What's the problem if she is entitled to it? She will be paying a lot of tax on her income. There are plenty of people who have never paid into the system getting a lot more than that. The disability part of the welfare system is not means tested and should be available to everyone, including higher earners who are funding the whole thing if they need help.

Of course it costs you money. You pay for all the additional insurance etc as part of your monthly payment, you quite often pay a lump sum at the beginning too.

The disability part of the welfare system is not means tested and should be available to everyone, including higher earners who are funding the whole thing if they need help.

This is a good point. Never thought of it that way when it comes to high earnings.

@C0ldasIc3 yes but you’re not a millionaire are you. The very fact that you are having to worry about money shows that you’re not in the bracket of people who don’t need to claim PIP. Unlike, for example, the Beckhams, if one of them had a disability.

I find it baffling that the people arguing against means-testing PIP are the very people who would benefit from there being a bigger pot of money for the non-wealthy claimants. I don’t claim PIP so it makes no difference to me, but I can’t help thinking that if very rich people didn’t claim it, then there’d be more for poorer people.

@MyOtherNameToday my brain is fine thank you, but I think you haven’t understood what I said. Where in my post did I say I would stop you getting PIP? I’ve read and re-read my post, and I can’t find anywhere in which I stated an actual figure as the cut off. I’m wondering why you are assuming it would affect you. Unless you’re a multimillionaire, in which case I stand by what I said, which is that you shouldn’t be claiming PIP because you’ve got plenty of money already.

@ExcellentFabulous

Yes but subsidised and you don't pay for some things like insurance, servicing and breakdown, and for some cars, MOTs too and maintenance for powered wheelchairs and scooters.

I pay for a package that includes that just as people do when leasing a car

You also get to trade them and for a new car after x number of years and miles or something.

Yes, it's usually a 3 year lease but you can extend to 5 if you want. The annual mileage is 20,000

There are much benefits to having motability cars. Plus you 'pay for them' with your enhanced mobility benefit instead of receiving the money yourself, so you're not out of pocket. You get to save money and a lot of drama.

Of course i 'pay for it' (wtf ' '?) I pay £284 every 4 weeks, not even monthly as I make 13 payments a year. I am out of pocket becsue of o didn't pay for the car I would have an extra £71 a week in my pocket. Surely this isn't difficult to understand?

I think the only disadvantage is that you could lose the car at any time if you lose your enhanced award at any review. So it's basically not yours. A lot of people have to weigh that against the benefits.

It's massively stressful in terms of reviews and not always cost effective to have a motability car. It depends how much you actually need/use a car.

Please don't be telling me I don't fucking pay for my car though.

Oh, you also neglected to mention advanced payments on cars, there are some that are £0 but depending on need, the advance payment can be quite high. Mine was £3999 for a car that fully suited my needs. Nothing flashy.

"I find it baffling that the people arguing against means-testing PIP are the very people who would benefit from there being a bigger pot of money for the non-wealthy claimants. I don’t claim PIP so it makes no difference to me, but I can’t help thinking that if very rich people didn’t claim it, then there’d be more for poorer people."

But there won't be more money for those who need it. Under DLA there's 3 rates of care and 2 mobility. There's 2 rates of care and mobility under PIP. It was made clear this was to save money. But they're not giving more money to more people. They're instead wasting it on tribunals, constantly reassessing people and face to face assessments.

but I can’t help thinking that if very rich people didn’t claim it, then there’d be more for poorer people.

I was until just now actually for rich people to not claim PIP just because they can but a post got me thinking differently. However I still think some can afford to not claim anyway.

However, I doubt rich people not claiming will cause there to be more for others as they have no impact on the rates of these benefits. There is no limited number of spots for disability benefits.

but I can’t help thinking that if very rich people didn’t claim it, then there’d be more for poorer people.

The rate of PIP isn't going to change because less people claim it. Neither will the qualifying criteria. People will not get more and more people will not get based on claimant numbers.