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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

PIP

312 replies

Ostagazuzulum · 06/12/2023 23:28

I know this is going to be controversial. That's not my intention.

I want to stress that I'm not having a go at anyone who gets benefits. I'm just curious about pip and how it's justified.

One of my friends today has told me that they were recently approved for pip in higher scale. Going to be getting around £700 a month apparently. She doesn't claim any other benefits. She has fibromyalgia. Her and her husband both have middle management full time jobs earning around £80k per year between the pair of them. They own their own home and she's very open about having around £12k in savings. Three children all of school age.

They're intending on using the money for holidays mostly.

I'm just baffled how it's justified.

She definitely suffers with the condition, can sometimes struggle with mobility. and you can see she's in pain. But what's the purpose of pip? Her condition isn't incurring any extra costs and isn't being spent on day to day help. Why do we have it for those circumstances?

OP posts:
MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple · 07/12/2023 01:30

You need professional help to fill out the forms by the sound of it because there appears to be a definite need. Contact a local CAB to find benefit support services. It really makes a difference as to how you approach the form. In the small example you have given the completed form should be demonstrating to the assessor that your sister can only wash herself when using pharmaceutical aides

What do you mean by “pharmaceutical aids” please? Her inhalers??

By professional help do you mean Citizens Advice? I’m so sorry for the questions but I’m really concerned about my sister. She is unable to work and has limited benefits. She goes days without food and can’t afford to go out during the day. She has no choice than to stay home which means she needs to heat her house all day, every day and is falling behind with her payments. I help her as much as I can but there is only so much I can give her

elliejjtiny · 07/12/2023 01:35

I have one child on pip and 2 on dla. A lot of people who know I claim dla/pip for them think I shouldn't. A lot of people think ds1 is just a bit quirky, or that ds4 is a bit slow at learning new things or that ds5 needs more discipline.

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:37

You will often be turned down on initial application. Mandatory Reconsideration and appeal is my advice (this is my job).

This thread has some inaccurate information but also some truth.

If you cannot complete the task for each descriptor repeatedly and reliably, and safely, you should be awarded points. Reliably includes within a reasonable time (if you take more than twice as long as a non-disabled person, points should be awarded), without significant pain, without needing to rest afterwards, without detriment to your health. Risk of falls, injuries etc are also taken into account.

Pp is correct that the majority of days is the standard, with a few exceptions involving ‘constant, unpredictable risk’ (seizures, blackouts, so on).

However, the reliability criteria also come into play.

Ideally, you need help from someone who knows the law. There are not for profit organisations and CIC’s who do this for a small fee. CAB do help but are hit and miss (we spend a lot of time dealing with their cock ups, although some advisers can be brilliant).

Don’t be deterred by the initial report though. The assessment companies are horrid, their reports are often plain wrong and not in keeping with the law, easily challenged.

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:38

Feel free to message me @MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:41

This is only partly true. The reliability criteria and ‘constant unpredictable risk’ come into play.

Fibro could easily score points under 11 (planning and following the route of a journey) due to brain fog and effects of pain. It could also score under 12, according to the reliability criteria, depending on level of pain, speed, risk of falls.

MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple · 07/12/2023 01:41

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:38

Feel free to message me @MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple

Thank you 🙏 . I’ll message you now

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:46

‘Pharmaceutical aids’ wouldn’t qualify. An inhaler isn’t an aid in PIP terms. It’s a medication. However, it sounds as though your sister should score points for prompting and assistance with tasks, even if she doesn’t receive that assistance. It’s the help needed that qualifies. Again, if she would benefit from aids (perching stool, shower stool, long handled sponge, grab rails, button fastening aids, bottom wiping aid, adapted cutlery, etc etc)… she should qualify whether or not she actually has them.

The evidence you supply will be critical. Consider doing an SAR for her medical records to see what can be used. There are templates online for this. An OT report is gold dust for pip.

MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple · 07/12/2023 02:28

WaitingForMojo · 07/12/2023 01:46

‘Pharmaceutical aids’ wouldn’t qualify. An inhaler isn’t an aid in PIP terms. It’s a medication. However, it sounds as though your sister should score points for prompting and assistance with tasks, even if she doesn’t receive that assistance. It’s the help needed that qualifies. Again, if she would benefit from aids (perching stool, shower stool, long handled sponge, grab rails, button fastening aids, bottom wiping aid, adapted cutlery, etc etc)… she should qualify whether or not she actually has them.

The evidence you supply will be critical. Consider doing an SAR for her medical records to see what can be used. There are templates online for this. An OT report is gold dust for pip.

Thank you for your post. My sister doesn’t need any of the things you posted. She is able to take a shower without aids. Her problem is getting up and about in the morning. She is unable to sleep at night as she regularly needs to take her inhaler because she’s very short of breath.

Once she’s awake she needs to take two inhalers, which take up to an hour to take effect. Once she’s up she is able to shower.

She can do her own shopping, but needs to take regular breaks to get her breath. She can do anything, really. It just takes a lot more time than normal.

She is unable to seek work because she knows she is

  1. Likely to be thrown out for being consistently late
  2. She cannot stand/sit for long periods without being in constant pain.
  3. She is unable to wear a bra as it restricts her lung function
  4. When she gets a cold she becomes extremely breathless very quickly and needs steroid medication immediately. Her health goes downhill extremely quickly. She has been told by her consultant that as soon as she feels she has a cold to seek medical advise immediately. Easier said than done.
  5. Yet she is able to wash and cook for herself. So not eligible for financial support.

The benefit system stinks!

Domino20 · 07/12/2023 02:47

MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple · 07/12/2023 01:30

You need professional help to fill out the forms by the sound of it because there appears to be a definite need. Contact a local CAB to find benefit support services. It really makes a difference as to how you approach the form. In the small example you have given the completed form should be demonstrating to the assessor that your sister can only wash herself when using pharmaceutical aides

What do you mean by “pharmaceutical aids” please? Her inhalers??

By professional help do you mean Citizens Advice? I’m so sorry for the questions but I’m really concerned about my sister. She is unable to work and has limited benefits. She goes days without food and can’t afford to go out during the day. She has no choice than to stay home which means she needs to heat her house all day, every day and is falling behind with her payments. I help her as much as I can but there is only so much I can give her

Yes, I mean her inhaler and medication.
I think citizens advice can probably help with the forms but most areas have more specialised services. If you would like to private message me I can get a bit of information from you to see what services might be in your area.

Teder · 07/12/2023 02:56

Changednayme · 07/12/2023 00:54

If she can still earn that kind of money with her condition she shouldn’t be getting £700 in disability money every month what a piss take

People who have jobs may have care needs that cost additional money? What a thoughtless and judgmental comment.

Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:00

NotAnotherPylon · 06/12/2023 23:36

You need to stop wondering and just be happy you don't have a chronic, debilitating condition. You might think you know everything about your friend's life, but you don't. DS2 gets DLA (old style PIP). I imagine people would wonder why if they saw him running around in the playground. But I know why and that's all that matters.

I actually do have two chronic debilitating conditions. One which is serious. I'm lucky enough to have a stable job so financially I'm managing.

Thanks for the judgment though 🙄

OP posts:
Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:06

Viviennemary · 06/12/2023 23:45

But she does have a genuine disability. Not sure what your complaint is.

I don't have a complaint. I would never begrudge her or anyone else it. I've heard how hard it is to get. I know of someone who has severe MS who is fighting for it despite being bed bound at his mums a lot of the time (in his 30s) and can't fathom why he wouldn't get it. I think maybe my original post was worded poorly. I was more curious about what the intention was for people to receive it. Should it be used for cleaners, home helps transport etc? To say they are so harsh on awarding it and people have to jump through hoops to get it, I guess I wondered what happens after in terms of use. I have disabilities but never thought to claim (it would be helpful but I work full time with a lot of adaptions so just always felt that it wasn't something I would or could get)

OP posts:
Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:08

Drdoomish · 06/12/2023 23:51

How did she manage to get it? My friend has ME. Took her ages and over a month's worth of her energy (so didn't go out) researching what gave her the best chance at being successful at getting PIP.

I attended her interview with her. She was honest. She shared his limiting her life is. (E.g. she needs a 2 hour rest after a 10 min shower)

She didn't get PIP. The report the decision was based on was incorrect (e.g. she attended the interview alone). She didn't have energy to go through the process again and fight the incorrect decision, due to her disability. She wouldn't let me try on her behalf, as that would still take it out of her.

She's existing on a tiny amount, as she's too ill to work. She has high outgoings from the diet costs of improving her ME and a higher fuel cost to make her ME tolerable. I give her money most months to make up her short fall.

So I ask again, how did she succeed in getting the payment? I'm all ears.

My friends son has gone through legal action to a tribunal or something to get it. His condition is really restrictive. I don't see how they could deny it to him. It seems very hit and miss who gets it.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:11

MatildaTheCat · 07/12/2023 00:06

To @Ostagazuzulum youd be better off directing your attention to the tax evaders who are depriving our country of resources for our social welfare.

and absolutely yes to the pp who said they never mention their awards to anyone for fear of judgement.

@Ostagazuzulum I look pretty bloody good mainly. I’m also in continuous pain. I take more medication than I can keep track of and I pace my activities severely so yes, I do x but at the expense of y and z that you can do without thought. That’s expensive as I need the heating on more. I have to pay for private therapies and nutritious meals that are quick and easy to make. And so many other items that make a difference.

Im still in pain. I will still need expensive state care in the future but for now they are helping me to stay as well and independent as possible. Think of that when you judge your friend.

I'm not judging her at all. I think I've explained myself. If you took away your judgmental remarks towards me, your answer was actually really interesting and explains it well.

I begrudge no one disability. I don't think anyone can fudge their way through pip assessment by sounds of it.

The tax evaders - 100% judge them.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:14

Willyoujustbequiet · 07/12/2023 00:18

To the OP

If a millionaire like David Cameron is entitled to claim then I really wouldn't dwell on your friend.

It's not about my friend. She was a general example of what prompted me to wonder about it.

Does he claim it?? Although it's not means tested surely there must be a cap off??? If you have millions in bank how can you justify taking £600 a month off taxpayer?

OP posts:
Potentialmadcatlady · 07/12/2023 06:16

Drdoomish · 06/12/2023 23:51

How did she manage to get it? My friend has ME. Took her ages and over a month's worth of her energy (so didn't go out) researching what gave her the best chance at being successful at getting PIP.

I attended her interview with her. She was honest. She shared his limiting her life is. (E.g. she needs a 2 hour rest after a 10 min shower)

She didn't get PIP. The report the decision was based on was incorrect (e.g. she attended the interview alone). She didn't have energy to go through the process again and fight the incorrect decision, due to her disability. She wouldn't let me try on her behalf, as that would still take it out of her.

She's existing on a tiny amount, as she's too ill to work. She has high outgoings from the diet costs of improving her ME and a higher fuel cost to make her ME tolerable. I give her money most months to make up her short fall.

So I ask again, how did she succeed in getting the payment? I'm all ears.

Th only way is to appeal and take it tribunal. Not sure of current stats but the number of successful appeals is very high.
Anyone who thinks PIP is easy to get hasn’t gone through the process.

Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:16

jm9138 · 07/12/2023 00:20

I don't claim it (I have RA) but my friend with spondyloarthritis as well as epilepsy does. I have thought of claiming (no I don't need the money) as I am in constant pain, have put on loads of weight because I cannot move and am just knackered to the point it has severely affected my ability to work for 18 months. So why have I not claimed? I guess I am a 'well it is not that bad' sort of person even when it is bloody awful and in addition don't need some interrogation from some disinterested administrator (not putting them down, but it must be a dull job). Interestingly I have never claimed any benefit (well, child benefit for a few years almost 20 years ago) but I would not feel bad claiming. I view it as I have paid at least £1 million in tax over my working life and honestly, I don't think I will be claiming much of my pension. At least 10% of this tax is national insurance and part of this insurance is as I see it a pay out for if my health takes a tumble. I don't view it any differently than my private life insurance policy. What would I spend it on? Nothing specific, but it might enable me to just work a little less which would really help.

So don't be baffled how it is justified. Unless you think it is fair that some people pay tax all their lives and never claim anything even when they could do with some support because it should only go to the absolutely destitute. I would agree with you if that is what you think, provided they massively cut taxes accordingly. But I quite like the safety net of not having to be out on the street or unable to get out of bed before I get help so happy to pay the tax.

This is a great answer in helping me understand it. I'm same, I have chronic conditions but would never have thought previously about it.thank you

OP posts:
autienotnaughty · 07/12/2023 06:18

Whilst I agree that it shouldn't be means tested I do feel the people who are financially rich shouldn't claim it just because they can.

Saying that I am working class, can only work part time due to my disability and I tried to apply for pip. I identified I scored 12. Had an interview that was heavily managed by the assessor, she asked for my best day and when I asked if I could talk about my worst day she interrupted and said I'd already told her (I hadn't) needless to say I didn't get it . I wish I'd appealed but at the time i found the whole thing so draining.

I assume your friend must suffer significantly and doesn't know what the future holds for her.

Original poster
Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:19

DaðiFreyrstrexarms · 07/12/2023 01:12

The OP, and some of the comments here, have made my stomach utterly sink. I get comments all the time from people who seem to think I'm not actually that disabled. I'm not going into it here, I'm quite riled. But the ableism in some of these comments is vile. It is absolutely none of any of yours business what is or isn't on someone else's PIP claim. Its none of your business why we might qualify. And our conditions are absolutely not up for speculation by you, who are neither experts on our conditions, or living in our bodies. How bloody insulting.

I'm so sorry you've taken it completely in the wrong context. There's no judgement on you. I can answer for disablist comments but mine weren't intended that way.

OP posts:
TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:23

Floralsofa · 07/12/2023 00:08

If due to a physical condition on the majority of days you must be unable to walk more than 20m reliably, timely and repeatedly (for enhanced)

You can however get mobility based on other conditions such as learning disability, seizures etc where you can physically walk without restriction, but would be vulnerable when out alone, it comes under a different descriptor.

Show quote history

So basically as I said, you CAN get this level of benefit and still be able to walk 20m.

Potentialmadcatlady · 07/12/2023 06:24

Taxis
Extra Heat
Constant travel to hospital appts
Car parking charges
Special Shoes
Extra Washing
Specialist Food
Extra hot water
Constant supervision
Phone
Extra Clothing

Thats the most basic start of a list.. I can’t be bothered doing anymore… Fed up having to justify my families existence.
It isn’t disabled top trumps or a race to the bottom or the top.

Drdoomish · 07/12/2023 06:38

Domino20 · 07/12/2023 00:14

There's a widespread policy to refuse applicants on intital application. As much as it would tax your friend to do so, she really will stand a better chance having a mandatory reconsideration.

Show quote history

That's what I discovered too. And told her.

She just hasn't got the energy in her to reapply. She'd rather cope short term with the struggle and have a limited life than expend at least another month's worth of energy and knock her health back doing so. She has no reserves in the tank for another year of poor health trying to get back to where she was health-wise before the application.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:41

@Ostagazuzulum really the clue to “what it’s for” is in the name. It’s a personal independence payment and is used to redress the balance for people whose life is more expensive due to disability. It’s nothing to do with how much you earn. It’s a good way of getting support to the point it’s actually used rather than blanket provision

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:44

@Drdoomish its not impossible to just answer a few questions a day and get through the form.

Drdoomish · 07/12/2023 06:52

If only it were that easy @TomeTome

Answering just two questions means a day's worth of energy used up. The energy needed for the brain processing means that she'll need to rest up significantly.

Would you like a whole month not seeing people or going out just to complete a form? And then x number of months after to regain the energy back from having to use all the brain power?

Had I not watched my friend endure this over many many years, I wouldn't have believed it either.