Don't flame me ....but immigration .....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Listening to our Immigration minister on good morning re Rwanda plan. The government ard going to preventvorvmake it harder for anyone coming to work here to bring their family... so.... the view is that say care jobs or jobs in NHS should be filled by British people...snd his message to businesses is not to firstly aim for overseas labour that could be cheaper.. and aim to get UK people into jobs. He says we have over a million consistent work avoiding individuals in UK as a statistic... and they are making it pay to work from now on hence benefit changes.
That's all good and well as a concept... but 2 things bother me here !! Well many...but 2 stand out:
Firstly, UK businesses that have traditionally made use of overseas labour like construction or leisure do not pay enough to entice people in the UK to take those jobs .
Secondly... if you are a UK citizen and you don't want to work... I Don't think forcing those individuals into critical jobs like caring or nursing is a good idea as they are probably not wired for those caring roles, and I would be worried about being looked after by someone that hasn't chosen this as a profession but essentially being forced into these roles.!! Admin or something fine... but what a ridiculous idea for the NHS! It's a tough job and some overseas nurses are better than our hone grown ones as its a calling I feel... to serve and to care.
Aibu to think I don't Want people that don't even want to work in these roles ?
The theory of it makes sense....but you can't practically apply it to industries like the NHS, etc.
I dread to think....

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I don’t entirely understand what you’re trying to say here.

but - I think the government are so wrong for what they’re doing

the nhs needs overseas workers, British people on the whole are lazy af. They are worried about immigrants coming and using the benefits system but there are SO many people misusing the benefits system that are British.

immigration actually helps this country with the work that needs to be done (I think you’ve made that point) we would be much worse off without the overseas nurses and construction workers etc.
in fact, I know some people tht are in finance jobs that are from overseas. They are on work visas.

I reckon the people who cry about “they’re taking our jobs” are those lazy gits who do the bare minimum. No one’s taking your job Bob. You haven’t got the work ethic to fulfil it.

I worked for the dwp in the pandemic a typical work coach has 120/140 people on their case load. One day I did a quick analysis looking at who was really job ready 5% were 6/7 out of my case load. I thought this could not be right so we did it against the whole team same stats came out time and time again. Most were not fit for work and no matter all the sound bites by politicians they never will be and yes it’s generational poor education poor choices etc etc total ridiculous idea

Oh yes and sorry some brits are totally lazy and wouldn’t want a job

They are targeting the wrong immigrants. People coming here to work aren't the problem. The boat loads of young men coming over are.

'work avoiding individuals'

lol

Sounds like some of my colleagues

I don't quite see how they propose to fill the NHS jobs with British people either. We have a massive number of unfulfilled vacancies in the NHS. The jobs are definitely there for anyone to take. You can't just waltz into a nursing or AHP job from the Jobcentre. You need minimum of 3 years of specialist training or apprenticeship (if your local trust offers it). So, there are no short term plan to fill these vacancies and we lose people at a greater rate than we employ due to pay stagnation and poor working conditions.
The Tory government already screwed up by removing bursaries at some point over the last 10 years. They then hastily introduced them again after seeing the numbers of trainees dropped. This, also meant that those of us who were unfortunate enough to train in the two years that bursaries weren't in place are the only cohort who had to pay for their education and saw no compensation of any kind from the government.
They need to take a long hard look at themselves and actually have a policy that takes a birds eye view of the problem. Not just pick immigration as a scapegoat and merrily go forth with a plan that is going to make no difference to actual jobs being fulfilled.

I agree that the idea that just any old person can do carework is worrying. I wouldnt want someone unsuited to care looking after me.

I cant say if using overseas carers is keeping wages lower and employers exploitative in a way they would struggle to get away with for uk employees though. My grandfathers care home had carers from the phillipines and they would "hot bed', sharing a double room between 4 of them to send as much money back home as possible, where they had left their children with grandparents. I had such mixed feelings. They were great carers and very motivated by making their childrens lives better, but it just felt like exploitation and they missed their children.

The whole thing is election rhetoric. Its all a load of rubbish

And we've already got the frothers on the thread, talking about 'boat people'

Allow asylum seekers to get their leave to remain quickly and then get out to work.

Back in the 80s and 90s when every second person in London was Australian on a work visa, who were sharing rooms and bedding down, doing bar work, care work, whatever, did you see that as exploitation?

Election rhetoric indeed. Trying to make us all look downward at non working brits and not upward at the politicians and corrupt business owners avoiding paying taxes and stacking the system.

and people fall for it every election cycle.

if only there was more money, say from corporate taxes, that could be spent on education, innovation and getting people into work, instead of telling people the bad immigrants are taking jobs the bad lazy brits should be doing.

Do you know why construction is low paid and no one wants to do it? Because the influx of foreign workers drove the rates down. Previously, a labourer could make 70-80 odd quid a day, the eastern european influx drove that down to 40 per day in some places.

If the rates come up, and working is more attractive than benefit scrounging, then those that choose not to work might change their tune. Leaving more money in the pot for those that don't have a choice.

If disabled are being pushed into working from home, then these lazy bastards should work for thier money too. No work, no community volunteering if no work = no money imo.

But the Australians tended to be young on a worldwide adventure.

not quite the same as being separated from your kids in the effort to work hard and send money home to improve their lives.

this stuff is about covering up their failings by promising ever increasing barriers to people from overseas working here despite the costs of administering and monitoring this.

what stuck out to me was the part that you need a huge salary to allow your non uk spouse to come here. Speaks volumes that they’re speaking to the anti foreigner voter here.

I think if a career in care work paid better you wouldn't have to force people to do it at all. And importing people desperate enough to work for terrible wages isn't a morally justifiable position.

I was only a child then.

I think the economic situation in australia is different than the phillipines and the motivators different. Id be surpirsed if the australians were sending money back home to their children and were not just young people having fun.

But as i say mixed feelings. My grandfathers carers were grateful for the opportunity. I just felt sad as they missed their babies so much.

Wow lots of interesting thoughts...
@bungletru you basically said in black and white what I've been thinking :-)
Of course businesses need to pay taxes etc thats a big problem. But if you put that aside .. looking at these suggestions I despair. I'd rather let good nurses etc come from else where and we support that, and look differently at what industries to encourage the non workers to get back into work would fit...
Using the NHS as an example of the roles these individuals should be doing is preposterous

I have a real issue with the health and social care sector being filled with foreign carers. I’ve had a thread on here before about when I was working in the care home sector - how uncomfortable I was that women with dementia (who couldn’t refuse) were having personal care carried out by predominantly young men from overseas. (The female residents without dementia would say “female carers only”).

this article in the Telegraph sums up a lot of my fears - many foreign workers have such poor English, it makes communication with patients and staff very difficult.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/04/woman-died-trapped-stair-lift-foreign-care-staff-english/

Only in a parallel universe does the average young man from Africa/India/the Philippines want to work caring for the elderly, those with dementia etc. They do it as others have mentioned simply to escape poverty. They have no real emotional attachment with the staff or patients. They don’t share cultural ideas and narratives (for example, elderly people’s post war memories) so cannot engage in meaningful conversations with care home residents.

Before anyone jumps in saying “my mother was cared for by Frank and he was from Nigeria and was so caring to her” - that is the exception in my experience. I’ve witnessed many occasions in care homes/hospitals where the carers simply could not have a conversation with the patient/resident because of poor English and comprehension.

We need to find ways of making health and social care jobs more attractive to UK domiciled people. Better pay, sick pay and pension would be a start. Also more staff on a shift to make workload manageable - but that is unlikely to happen sadly.

it’s all very depressing.

Rather than punishing people who want to come and live in the UK, they should focus on the benefits system. When I have moved previously to live in other countries there was no state benefits of any kind. When I went there I was prepared and had a job lined up/house sorted etc (I appreciate this is different for people who are fleeing war torn countries etc).

people who are not Brisith citizens shouldn’t have access to benefits and free healthcare until they are either on a working visa or a UK citizen or they pay for it (health care) - I did this when abroad. They should be aloud to work legally for a fair wage that means they are able to rent at least a room and have enough to get by.

benefits systems should also be more supportive for single parent household. Benefits are designed to keep people in poverty but cover the absolute bare minimum so people are still relying on food banks etc. this shouldn’t be the case. I can’t comment on any one receiving any type of DLA as I have no experience with this. Childcare should be more affordable. People should benefit From being in work and under the current system they don’t quite often.

as long as people are coming to the UK to work, pay tax and contribute to the economy then they should be welcome to stay.

I thought jobs in health and social care were exempt from the minimum salary?

I think the money is there they just don’t care enough to use it for good use! They are more interested in lining their pockets and keeping the rich rich

Taking nurses from developing countries, some on UN red lists i.e Do not recruit health staff, is totally corrupt and wrong.

Overseas nurses also often bring with them poor training/different ways of working/lack English skills.

100% agree on forcing long term unemployed into care work etc just shows how little we value our elderly, its still a MW role.

I think we need more legal ways to come and work not less!

Issuing 3 year work visas without the ability to bring family nor recourse to public funds would be a starting point- no minimum salary but would need to prove English language skills and have sufficient funds to support themselves for 4 weeks then prove they have found work to be allowed to stay. These should be issued overseas to stop illegal migration

The bit about raising the sponsorship level for British with foreign spouses really got up my nose. So when DH and I were starting our careers and looking to get married, we were fortunate that my 24 grand starting salary was enough to sponsor him, but a similar job now would be unlikely to earn enough to do the same. So we would have had to split up or move to his home country. But if Rishi Sunak's kids want to marry a foreigner that's fine.

The issue is complicated and those with black and white thinking on either side don't capture important nuances of the argument.

Currently, UK needs a certain level of immigration because the very low birth rates in UK mean that there's not enough young people to replace the older population, and working and paying taxes for services/pensions etc. The overpopulation myth is only making things worse. The world is not overpopulated - there are enough resources to sustain the current population and more; the big problem we have is that world resources are mismanaged and/or unequally distributed often due to the greed and power of politically powerful countries. Also, the key contributing factor to why the population numbers appear high compared to the past is because people are living longer (which is a good thing). We actually have the opposite problem of overpopulation in most nations, not having enough children means our countries are in serious trouble e.g. Read this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53409521.amp

On the other hand, we don't have the right mix of immigration and the numbers are unnecessarily extremely high. The numbers of illegal immigrants, especially those coming in on boats, is far too high and a huge security risk. It's utter madness the UK is letting them stay. The government is completely correct to enact its Rwanda policy for this purpose and the majority of the UK general population (not the vocal minority) agree. We should be focusing on letting in (and actively encouraging where needed) immigrants who benefit the UK e.g. healthcare workers, and letting them in at the right numbers the countries needs.

One new thing I learnt is that employers recruiting from overseas can legally pay LESS than they would have to someone already living here... i think thats disgusting and you can see why there's no incentive to invest in UK job seekers, particularly as these posts are already often very low paid. I do think the government has a massive cheek considering they have made so many negative changes that affect the workforce like removing NHS bursary for students. They've had so long to reform the health and care sector but they've been too busy with austerity policies and trying to protect their grey vote ( even though the latter suffer most from poor care in later years).

It’s a joke, hospitals are struggling massively with recruitment. ..due to demographic changes and the high cost of housing where I live, young people looking for work are in short supply and those who stay need higher salaries than most on offer to be able to afford to live here.