Don't flame me ....but immigration .....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Listening to our Immigration minister on good morning re Rwanda plan. The government ard going to preventvorvmake it harder for anyone coming to work here to bring their family... so.... the view is that say care jobs or jobs in NHS should be filled by British people...snd his message to businesses is not to firstly aim for overseas labour that could be cheaper.. and aim to get UK people into jobs. He says we have over a million consistent work avoiding individuals in UK as a statistic... and they are making it pay to work from now on hence benefit changes.
That's all good and well as a concept... but 2 things bother me here !! Well many...but 2 stand out:
Firstly, UK businesses that have traditionally made use of overseas labour like construction or leisure do not pay enough to entice people in the UK to take those jobs .
Secondly... if you are a UK citizen and you don't want to work... I Don't think forcing those individuals into critical jobs like caring or nursing is a good idea as they are probably not wired for those caring roles, and I would be worried about being looked after by someone that hasn't chosen this as a profession but essentially being forced into these roles.!! Admin or something fine... but what a ridiculous idea for the NHS! It's a tough job and some overseas nurses are better than our hone grown ones as its a calling I feel... to serve and to care.
Aibu to think I don't Want people that don't even want to work in these roles ?
The theory of it makes sense....but you can't practically apply it to industries like the NHS, etc.
I dread to think....

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Your reasoning is completely logical, however we do not have 750,000 spare bedrooms for next year's arrivals.

I imagine the govt reasoning is reducing supply should push up wages for some roles forcing companies to pay rather than rely on top up benefits. (good)

And that there are plenty of would-be immigrants who do not have dependents. (not so sure).

And did they leave their young kids with their parents whilst they worked all the hours they could to put a roof over their kids heads and food on their table? Or did they head back home to a comfortable life once the fun had worn off? How disingenuous of you

The whole thing is a shit show. Crass dog whistle politics without the slightest thought for the actual impact of these stupid policies on our economy, our public services and our care sector.

Fuck this government. Fuck the Tories. And fuck the ignorant right-wing twats who voted them in. I'm just fed up of the lot of them.

The world- overpopulation "myth" is anything but a myth unfortunately, it's the principle reason we have a ecological crisis. The idealised redistribution of wealth to allow us all to be sustained has never happened and is fsr less likely than the alternatives, which are war, famine, destruction of the environment and want.

My partner came to the UK 20 years ago to work as a labourer and he was paid decent money. He now owns his construction business and employs European workers. They are paid in the region of £120-£200 a day depending on level of skill and responsibility. Consequently, this is more than I get paid working in the NHS at a relatively high pay band. So I would disagree that construction industry poorly paid. I don't know any plumber who charges less than £80 an hour.
People don't want to do it because it is a back breaking work.

The government know that they're very near the end now, so will just say any old nonsense hoping that it will win a few votes. They're just ridiculous, but it does actually affect peoples lives.

The Tories are only doing this (knee-jerk policies on immigration) in a desperate attempt to grab a few more votes and headlines in the Daily Mail. They have no interest in whether the policies will achieve anything.

I do think UK employers in some sectors need to take a good look at themselves: the reason they can't retain/recruit staff is often because the pay is abysmal and the conditions poor.

Care, hospitality, teaching, nursing...high stress jobs with little reward so no wonder people don't want to do them.

Start paying and treating staff properly and then thing will change. The idea of just recruiting cheap labour from abroad is not the solution.

I imagine the govt reasoning is reducing supply should push up wages for some roles forcing companies to pay rather than rely on top up benefits. (good)

And yet the government has consistently refused to engage with healthcare workers who have been striking over wages.

So, they won't allow NHS wages to be increased and they won't allow immigration to fill those roles. It's almost like they want the NHS to (continue its path to) collapse.

The NHS has never in its entire history not relied on foreign labour. Its inception coincided with decolonisation, allowing for an influx of cheap labour from the countries of Britain's former empire. It's going to take radical rethinking to envisage a health service that isn't reliant on immigrants staffing it.

I find it troubling that migrants on a skilled worker visa in a shortage occupation (such as healthcare) can be paid less than the national minimum wage. The legal minimum for care workers is £7.63/hr and for agricultural workers it is £7.38/hr. For UK residents it is £10.42/hr so it's no wonder that employers prefer to use migrant workers - especially once you have deducted accommodation from the pay.

There was nothing in Cleverly's announcement to suggest that these shortage occupation exceptions will be changed, only the base salary for skilled workers who aren't on the shortage list.

DH is a first generation immigrant. 30 years working in the NHS. My parents were first generation immigrants and came here in the 50s to work in the NHS, 30 years each.
I have spent a lot of time in hospital in recent years and have been looked after by a whole host of immigrant hcps. I don't know where we would be without them. I very much doubt we have sufficient people here, especially since Brexit, to fill the jobs. I have met refugee status qualified doctors and dentists unable to work. It is ridiculous. Surely there must be a better way to sort this out.

The other thing we need to be doing is helping UK people/citizens to plug in work gaps where sensible (of course it's not always possible so overesas recrutiment is needed in those areas and nothing wrong with people coming here to visit and study, which keeps UK culturally vibrant).

It's madness we have a shortage of doctors etc in some parts of NHS but a large number of very bright UK students with right grades and attributes get turned down from medicine because there's not enough medical.school spaces - the obvious solution is to raise the cap on medical places and tweak the system with incentives/discentives so that doctor specialities with the most employment gaps are filled.

Same for nurses and midwives, where the problem is much worse. Bring back bursaries, pay for their course so no/little tuition fees and improve staffing numbers and conditions and over time the problem will resolve. It's not rocket science yet both tories and Labour are obsessed with always recruiting overseas which is wrong. We elected them to serve our interests not global interests. It's wrong for them to neglect home grown talent when it's available. We're the ones who voted for them, we pay the taxes they spend, we pay their own expenses, not the Phillipines, India etc. If they want to serve global interests and not put UK first as the normal default, they should seek jobs in the appropriate global organisations instead.

We shouldn't be recruiting for such professions overseas by default, especially because most of the workers are coming for economic reasons, not because of love of caring for vulnerable UK people. It's also immoral to be stealing the skilled talent of developing countries who often need such workers for their own populations and can't compete with the offers of Western countries.

It's headline grabbing, gammon feeding nonsense, and incredibly destructive to the UK.

My DD currently lives and works abroad. Is a fully qualified and experienced professional in an area the UK has massive shortages in. She has toyed with the idea of relocating back to the UK (she came here as a teen). She is exactly the sort of person the UK needs. It will never happen now because even as a professional british citizen she wouldn't earn enough to bring her family with her.

Add to that, DH is a scientist. The new salary threshold is above the salary of a postdoc researcher. So forget attracting the brightest and the best. The UK has just slammed the door on the next generation of scientists.

I assume you’ve not actually looked at proportions making up the 750,000 migrants last year, judging by this comment?
”illegal “immigration is a very small minority of that 750,000. And the boat loads of “young men” are even less (6% of overall immigration or around 46,000 people) . Ok, that’s higher than historic figures, but we are doing little with slashing overseas aid to address the real cause of what drives these people to leave their own countries .

so, Tories want sound bites to reduce the 750,000 surge in migration they’ve produced. They’ve produced it through Brexit directly, through the changes they made on their immigration policy, and by defunding and lack of support for NHS and social care leading to a staffing crisis. That staffing needed to be filled- and the 2nd biggest majority of the 750,000 are doing just that . The biggest majority was produced by tories deregulation of student numbers and opening up student visa. This arguably brings in money to uk in form of university tuition- issue is that Tories don’t want to spend any of that on housing these people, healthcare provision increases needed, etc etc. they just want the money /tax but not spend it in those areas dealing with this mass influx in overseas students.

And meanwhile their solution to addressing the million plus economically inactive working age population in this country is to pick on disabled people and remove their benefits? Or force people into caring professions whether they’re suited or not and sit back and watch while abuse and neglect is inflicted on the most vulnerable as a result?

the next 2 biggest groups are form Ukraine and Hong Kong. By far outweighing the relative smaller amounts arriving in boats.

The issue with “illegal” immigration is that people arriving are not being processed fast enough. Backlogs are massively growing due to staff cuts under Tories. To unbelievable stupid levels. This means we have a growing population of forced economically inactive people needing support just while they’re processed. Again, numbers each year aren’t overwhelming in themselves, but the backlog is getting bigger and bigger producing unprecedented and deplorable levels. Instead of addressing the processing time , which costs money and doesn’t make good headlines, the Tories are focusing on being seen to be tough. By the way there is no such thing as illegal immigration, it is seeking asylum as refugees. Seemed acceptable from Ukraine, Vietnam and countless other counties over last centuries , but Muslims from Libya, Afghanistan etc, nah . then you get forced idle , disenfranchised and economically poor young men who will always be trouble wherever they’re from …why not process them fast, get them into work if they have a legitimate claim on asylum or send them back home if rejected. You do know Rawanda is a holding scheme for those waiting processing? The hope, by the cabinet, is that if successful in claiming asylum they’d be resettled in “ situ” in Rawanda - at our expense, but no economical benefit to us, really? No wonder Rawanda is laughing all the way to the bank.

but, the right wing press still believe that whipping up decent and deflection vs where the real cause is, sells newspapers . And the government thinks it’ll get them votes to splash out very publically on obscenely expensive schemes like Rawanda , that will make a tiny dint in the numbers.

nice charts a available on Sky from ONS just 2 weeks ago, with breakdown if you want to look.

Your ignorance is astounding. Why do you think those young men are risking their lives getting on those boats??

This is so well put and the one thing they seem to be overlooking

@Eyesopenwideawake so is yours!! Are you telling me they are coming over here to work in our public sectors ???

A week or so ago threads were full of outrage over the 750k net migration figure. It’s obvious a reduction will follow, what were people annoyed about - a too high figure

@lollipoprainbow you will see that focus come back I think. It’s both

Quite offended that people seem to think anyone can just walk into nursing I have a degree it took me 3-4 years I wasn’t just yanked off the street to do it .

Let me tell you about the.migrant workers in the NHS that are only here for a visa.

My trust is employing anyone with a pulse as band 2 Auxiliaries. Anyone that goes for interview gets employed unless there is a massive red flag.

We have 3 migrant males on our ward. They admit they don't want to be there, they are only there for a reference to get another higher paid job so they can get to stay in the country.

They ignore patients buzzing, ignore patients asking for the toilet, don't check patients skin. They are constantly disappearing off the ward. One was found sleeping in the staff room outwith his break time. Always having a sit down at the nurses station when all other staff are run ragged. Always on their phones.

No amount of trying to explain how we do things makes any difference. They carry on as they are, doing bugger all.

I'm not saying all migrants are like this but this is my experience if the latest ones to grace the NHS.

Yes the NHS has a staffing crisis but the answer isn't to fill it with anyone with a pulse and no interest in the job.

Why does the NHS not implement a 3 month trial and then if someone is not suitable they can be let go. We have bucket loads of lazy uninterested new staff that are given contracts and now we're stuck with them and staff that have been here for years are leaving.

It's interesting to have a Tory government is not interested in economic growth.

As without enough appropriately trained people here - so either importing them from elsewhere or massive investment in skills training (we really need both) and/or massive investment in automation and a big rise in productivity the economy will not grow in the next ten years.

We have already fallen behind other similarly sized economies in the last 15 years.

So, they are moving away from a model of constant economic growth and towards protecting the climate and towards a more socialist model of putting people and high wages first?

Don't be silly. They are dog whistling to the Right again, and just being the usual utterly incompetent corrupt bastards we have come to expect.

That is a silly comparison. A young Australian who has chosen to go on a working adventure, similar to what I did; a young 20 something Brit who went on a working holiday visa to Australia. Sleeping in cheap hostels and bunking down on fellow travellers settees is completely different from families forced apart from their children for a few years at a time so that they can send money home to feed and clothe their children. Too poor to be able to offer the children much in their home countries, they feel the need to be separated from young children to earn money abroad.

Two completely different scenarios.

OP, you can't force someone into work as a nurse. A carer, yes, a nurse, no. You need a 3 year degree to be a nurse. How do you propose the government force people to get the grades to go to university, force them to get a degree etc?

YANBU. Whenever I have had encounters with the NHS recently it has been obvious that they are dependent on immigration and that we are benefiting from it. When I need medical care, I want it to be provided by people who actually want to do it whatever their nationality, not by people who have been forced into it.

It's not OP who wants to force them. Try asking the Prime Minister.