Don't flame me ....but immigration .....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Listening to our Immigration minister on good morning re Rwanda plan. The government ard going to preventvorvmake it harder for anyone coming to work here to bring their family... so.... the view is that say care jobs or jobs in NHS should be filled by British people...snd his message to businesses is not to firstly aim for overseas labour that could be cheaper.. and aim to get UK people into jobs. He says we have over a million consistent work avoiding individuals in UK as a statistic... and they are making it pay to work from now on hence benefit changes.
That's all good and well as a concept... but 2 things bother me here !! Well many...but 2 stand out:
Firstly, UK businesses that have traditionally made use of overseas labour like construction or leisure do not pay enough to entice people in the UK to take those jobs .
Secondly... if you are a UK citizen and you don't want to work... I Don't think forcing those individuals into critical jobs like caring or nursing is a good idea as they are probably not wired for those caring roles, and I would be worried about being looked after by someone that hasn't chosen this as a profession but essentially being forced into these roles.!! Admin or something fine... but what a ridiculous idea for the NHS! It's a tough job and some overseas nurses are better than our hone grown ones as its a calling I feel... to serve and to care.
Aibu to think I don't Want people that don't even want to work in these roles ?
The theory of it makes sense....but you can't practically apply it to industries like the NHS, etc.
I dread to think....

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This is all true. But also, one Phillipino nurse might be supporting an entire family back home, with no opportunity to do so by staying there.

@Havanananana Before Brexit, there was a flexible workforce made up of EU citizens who could come and go as they pleased, who came to the UK when there was seasonal work - particularly in construction, agriculture and hospitality - and who left at the end of the season. Young EU citizens came to the UK for a season or for a year or two and then for the most part returned home. This was a flexible system and simple to administer for both employees and for the employers.

That doesn't represent the truth at all. Over 4 million EU citizens applied for settled status following Brexit, the majority from Eastern Europe. They didn't come over seasonally, for the most part they came over and stayed. We have a non contributory welfare system. Would you have gone back home as the work dried up when you could have stayed and accessed it? I think the numbers who applied for settled status answers that question.

@MrTiddlesTheCat

The people entering on boats/lorries etc are entering illegally and those are the ones I'm mainly talking about. They should be deported back to the safe country they came from or another safe country who has space to take them. Why on earth do they think they have the right to enter a country illegally??

I'm in a safe country and I would never dream of paying a criminal network and rocking up illegally to another country and that I'm entitled to them to letting me in. Would you? People with this attitude are exactly type we need to stop entering our country. We have enough criminals and bad people as it is. They've already shown the type of people they are by willingly paying criminal gangs and being happy to break laws.

The asylum system needs to be updated. International law shouldn't allow asylum seekers to pick and choose wherever they want to go. Once they're in a safe country, they should be able to apply for other countries they want to live in but it's up to those countries if they take them.or not. Anyone trying to illegally enter a country should be deported, like anybody else would.

@Brakken "The people entering on boats/lorries etc are entering illegally and those are the ones I'm mainly talking about. They should be deported back to the safe country they came from or another safe country who has space to take them."

People have the right to enter ANY country in order to seek asylum, and if they fulfil the requirements, they can be granted asylum (as happens in the majority of the cases in the UK provided they can actually get as far as an asylum tribunal. Only if they fail to meet the requirements, can they be sent back - a process that is far more difficult now that the UK has left the EU and left the Dublin Agreement that facilitated this.

"Why on earth do they think they have the right to enter a country illegally??"

The international Conventions to which the UK is a signatory (and which the UK was largely responsible for framing) gives genuine asylum seekers this right, and furthermore makes it illegal for a country to deem such people "illegal" solely on the mode of transport or route taken to reach a country. There is no requirement for them to seek asylum in the first country that they arrive at. The UK government is in breach of these Conventions a) by not providing a safe route in the first place, b) not processing claims in a timely manner, c) by defining these people as "illegal immigrants" based on how they arrived in the UK and d) by passing legislation that will see people deported to another country against their will.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations

There are plenty of minimum rates here which are lower than NMW.

Havanananana
People have the right to enter ANY country in order to seek asylum, and if they fulfil the requirements, they can be granted asylum (as happens in the majority of the cases in the UK provided they can actually get as far as an asylum tribunal. Only if they fail to meet the requirements, can they be sent back - a process that is far more difficult now that the UK has left the EU and left the Dublin Agreement that facilitated this.

The Dublin Regulation is a pre-application process - supposedly to decide which EU member state is responsible for processing the asylum application (in applicable cases). The UK was a net recipient under Dublin. Is Yvette Cooper still implying that we returned thousands of asylum seekers to the EU under Dublin?

"Here we go again. In 2017 under the Dublin Regulation 314 migrants were transferred out of the UK and 461 migrants were transferred to the UK. The year before the numbers were 362 and 558. Dublin didn't work. Labour aren't serious."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1800425/yvette-cooper-labour-migrant-returns-deal-eu

You'll have to explain then why almost no one crossed the channel in small boats pre Brexit in 2020?

Perhaps Dublin acted as a deterrent and now there is none.

Posters say Rwanda will work by taking just a few 100 migrants as its a deterrent.

& isn't Rwanda going to send the UK their asylum seekers?

Aside, the Express is a low bar.

We have an increasing need for care due to aging population so we either pay lower amounts and have high immigration or pay higher amounts for care places or do it ourselves

On any kind of EU wide agreement like the Dublin one it’s clearly not created as a deterrent hence increasingly high movement into EU and across it

It seems simple, some difficult decisions to make

A convention created in 1951 probably won’t last with burgeoning trafficking for profit and increased climate pressures. Not just here m, demand for change will increase

jasflowers
You'll have to explain then why almost no one crossed the channel in small boats pre Brexit in 2020?

A major incident was declared in 2018;

The home secretary, Sajid Javid, has declared the rising number of migrants attempting to cross the English Channel a “major incident”, as campaigners and charities warned of increasing desperation among those attempting to make the journey.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/28/channel-migrant-crossings-a-major-incident-says-sajid-javid

Perhaps Dublin acted as a deterrent and now there is none

How do you explain this incident in 2015?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/29/calais-one-dead-1500-migrants-storm-eurotunnel-terminal

We can't cope with the 60s baby boom by creating a current population boom, though. Most of the people migrating here aren't doing anything to help the ageing population directly - and when they stay and have children, and get to pensioner age themselves, it just repeats the problem over again. We're a small country with a population the same size as Canada, and one of the most densely populated countries in the world. We are already one of the most nature-depleted countries on the planet and are reliant on food imports to feed everyone already here.

We're hitting a tipping point, and we'll soon be seeing even more civil unrest from people living crammed like cattle into B&Bs and HMOs, especially bored, unaccompanied young men. There's a reason people are so upset at seeing hotels taken over by the government for new arrivals, while their kids are stuck living in mould & damp because "there's no money" to improve council accommodation, but any concerns raised about this are written off as racism.

Actually I can't edit my comment but that should say - we have TWICE the population as Canada.

What an insult to the amazing British nurses I came across in the hospital. Absolutely outstanding people. Far from lazy.

Your comment is ignorant and racist against the British.

I would hop, skip and jump to work too if I was paid the equivalent of a months salary in a day!

In the big cities the wages of the jobs that are often filled by immigrants are so poorly paid in comparison to the astronomical costs of housing that it's very difficult to afford to live. British people expect a certain standard of living so no one will take these jobs.

Exactly @passiveaggressivenonsense can't/won't live 25 people to a 3 bed house either. Paying 1 council tax payment!

I agree with this. I had a miscarriage last August and the Dr who debriefed me after the scan had fairly basic English. He managed to tell me I had adenomyosis but wasn't able to explain to me anything about it. He said 'people with grey hair get this'. Luckily I'm not easily offended and I have two kids, but it wasn't ideal. Imagine if I was a woman with no children struggling with infertility.

With each visa paving the way for 4 minor children and a spouse. Free education, free healthcare and security.

Nonsense. It costs many thousands of pounds to study in the UK as an overseas student.

I think firstly consider that this is a classic Tory move because its demonising both people on benefits AND immigrants.

Perfect for Brexit Barry - get the lazy workshy back to work and get rid of the immigrants? Double win for him!

This is a lovely little soundbite to appeal to them as GE approaches.

IMO a lot of the trouble is that so many of the jobs immigrants often do (care workers etc.) are very poorly paid - nobody in parts of the U.K. can manage to live on those salaries unless they’re prepared to live in often overcrowded and poorly maintained HMOs.

Which some people may not mind, if they’re not planning to stay long term and hope to be able to save a little/send money home to a country where it’ll go rather further, but for a good many Brits it’s just not on.

The soaring cost of housing coupled with a low-wage economy are IMO the main issues here.

"people who are not Brisith citizens shouldn’t have access to benefits and free healthcare until they are either on a working visa or a UK citizen or they pay for it (health care) - I did this when abroad."

I am a British citizen, as is DD. I can't speak about the system for illegal immigrants or those in the middle of an asylum claim, but if you come here legally (as my DH did) you don't have access to benefits, and this is clearly stated on the visa ("No access to public funds"). Also, you pay the NHS surcharge before getting your visa, which is an absolute fortune. In my DH's case, he is technically paying for healthcare three times - he paid the NHS surcharge once (circa £2,000), he pays national insurance contributions on his income, and he has had to register for private healthcare as it is the only way he can see a doctor - our local surgery is full and refuses to take any new patients. We were also prepared to move to the UK with a job and a house lined up, but it has been astonishingly expensive, and we all wish we hadn't done it!

@Parsley1234 - this is so interesting. Based on your personal experience in the DWP, why do you think so many people are not fit to work (disabilities aside)? What can we as a nation and a society do differently to change this?

(Sorry - I realise this sounds like I am asking you to create a party manifesto, but I am genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts.)

@user1477255159 as a person who held a student visa for 10+ years (boarding school and uni) I can tell you most students who come are single and even the ones who bring kids, it's usually max 2. you have to pay the NHS surcharge for each individual which is hugely expensive. they are now making that even more expensive. not to mention the amount paid in fees and money sent from home countries for living expenses. many members of my family have come to the UK, studied and left. out of 17 people from my extended family who have studied in the UK - only 2 have stayed and both because they ended up marrying someone british.

I also went to a uni with a high number of international students, almost no one remained in the uk after studied were complete.

Generally international students come from affluent families who can afford to pay the exorbitant fees.

stop reading the daily mail and go and actually meet some people maybe?

As an immigration solicitor I don't know why I open these threads because my blood pressure goes up just from the misinformation that's perpetuated about Skilled Worker visas!

ALL Skilled Workers have to meet the NMW. Every single person on that visa cannot be paid less than NMW (which will no doubt increase in April). The salary thresholds in the Shortage Occupation list are being read out of context. NMW is the absolute minimum irrespective of the Skilled Occupation List/Shortage Occupation List, but of course it could be more than this if the specific role requires it (a Band 6 Nurse must be paid at least £17.29 p/h in England).

ALL Skilled Workers must meet an English requirement in Speaking, Reading, Writing and Listening. I would agree that there may be times when they meet this requirement but do not seem to have the skills when they are actually in the role. That is for the employer to determine (the same as they would have done pre-Brexit for any European workers who didn't need a visa at all.) - I have a client employer right now who is implementing their own English test as part of the interview process. But it is not fair to say the visa system does not test English.

ALL Skilled Workers (except for those working for the NHS) have to pay an upfront fee as part of their visa - soon increasing to £1,035 per year of the visa. This is even the case if they have private medical insurance.

ALL Skilled Workers have a restriction on their visa forbidding recourse to public funds. They are not entitled to claim benefits. They ARE however entitled to claim funds that are connected to their National Insurance Contributions e.g. maternity pay.

Such a good point - its HUGELY expensive no matter which way you come to the UK. DH has paid thousands in NHS surcharges despite never even seeing the GP in 7 years, and an absolute bomb in the visa fees. There is no quick cheap way to access the UK - its a lie that is frequently peddled.