To think the rich/poor divide is so unfair

[Mooshamoo]

I know people who were born into lovely comfortable families.

These people had enough money. They also had two supportive caring parents. No worries or stres at all..Every one of those people went on to college, and went on to have really good jobs. They have a good social life, they get to socialise with people who also came from comfortable families.

I came from a troubled family. My father abandoned us. Which left us in poverty. So we had no money. I also had no emotional support whatsoever. My mother was an emotional mess and couldn't cope on her own with anything, I basically had to be her mother from a very young age. I had a lot of emotional worries and stress. As a young woman, early twenties, I remembered seeing other young women enjoy nights out. I never got to have anything like that as I was just struggling to survive.

I didn't have support to achieve anything in my life, and I ended up in dead end jobs and I still now don't have a lot of money, I don't have good relationships. I don't have great friendships, as I find the rich affluemt comfortable people don't want to socialise with me. I remember one person saying to me "oh is that a shitty little job that you do".

And if I socialise with people from a similar troubled background to myself, these peollw have so many problems of their own, that these never turn out to be good healthy friendships for me. We just add to each others problems. For example we will sit with each other and one person will say "I lived in foster care and it was horrendous, the family were abusive" I will say "one time i lived in emergency accommodation as a young woman and it was awful". Our lives were so bad that to be around each other, we just make each other sadder and worse.

It just feels like being trapped in a cycle of poverty and suffering that's not fair and there is no way out.

It's luck of birth.

I hate this narrative that only grammar and private schools give you a good education. State schools also provide a great education, however the children will need to be even more disciplined to make the most of the opportunity's. This is where the role of parents come in. Most south Asian people I know have been state educated but now have careers as doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants. Its all drilled in from a young age that you have to make the most of the free education provided to you.

You’ve nicely demonstrated the structural disadvantages by commenting you’ll buy advantage for your child eg private school

Point taken but my reasons for sending DS private are not just about 'buying advantage' but his struggles at state school. I'm state educated and have done well for myself so I'm a huge advocate for the state education system. But it doesn't work for my DS. And doesn't work under the Tories. So yes I'll buy a better education for my DS because I care more about that than other things. And fully appreciate I'm privileged in being able to do that.

There in the minority, a tiny minority.

My siblings and I grew up in poverty, we shared a flat with another family, it was damp, cold and mouldy, breakfast typically wasn’t a thing as generally there was only enough money for one meal a day at home. The gas was usually off as there wasn’t money for the meter, so that often meant no hot water, no oven, no hob. We were in care at various points in our childhood, we were subjected to racial violence at school from both staff and students. We were subjected to neglect, physical abuse and emotional abuse at home.

One sibling is in and out of prison and psychiatric hospitals, a class A drug user and homeless. I’m amazed they are still alive. Another has been in and out of psychiatric hospitals, when well enough works as a taxi driver, lives in a caravan on someones driveway and hoards food to the point that they’re severely underweight as they’re too scared to eat it in case the food runs out. I’ve got a (usually) well managed eating disorder, I spent my later teens on drugs (and was part of what we now call county lines), I was homeless from the age of 16 to 17, I have a (usually) well controlled mental health condition that is likely linked to trauma I experienced as a child.

Being resourceful and determined doesn’t make you happy or a success, nor does it cure health problems, or the physical scars from being beaten and having your bones purposely broken, or being used as an ashtray.

It's unfair and it's harsh but only you can change it and focussing on how unfair it is will not change it. I'm not unsympathetic but I was born into a family where there were a lot of problems, but of the three siblings, two of us have done exceptionally well and the other has done pretty well. My twenties and early thirties were like you describe. My forties and fifties, well things began to pay off, my career took off etc, I sorted out my private life. Lives can and do change, but you have to be relentlessly serious and self disciplined about changing them and you have to keep getting back up. No-one will help you but you. Most things are temporary anyway - even a good streak of luck comes to an end and people whose lives look perfect can and do suffer major setbacks over the long term.

I have a very similar background to to you OP, except my DF decided to commit suicide leaving 3 children.

my 2 older siblings are very very effected as adults still today, one gets into lots of trouble, walked away from his kids, can’t keep a job or simply get on with anyone. The other is just like my “D”M mean, angry, hateful. The only good thing I can say is he decided not to have children so the cycle will hopefully end with him.

Me, as the youngest promised myself a better life, a better outcome; more money, a stable family.
I got out of my home town where my families rep proceeded me and I’ve done quite well. 3 DC, wonderful husband, successful career.

I keep minimal (if any) contact with my 2 sibings and mother as they only ever cause me trouble. They are bad for my mental health. They do drag me down.

But I am doing my ok. I mix wjth people who have similar passions as me, who work hard and what to get on well with life. We don’t gossip. I am who I created now and who I surround myself.

It’s possible, you just need to decide to breaK the cycle. Get away from family and friends who drag you down. Work in an environment you can progress and get on and meet new people.

@Mooshamoo Life is not always fair and yes of course the rich have an advantage, but it is not always a happy life. Many have parents who are too busy and they never see. Of course you have ones who have it all too.

But also, there are many who came from poor backgrounds and managed to do well from themselves. My father came from a very poor background. He was also the result of an affair, born out of wedlock, which during his time was very taboo. In fact, it was never spoken about and I only learned about this after he passed away :( It makes me sad to think about his early life and how it was a struggle. He had it tough. He worked himself through college. And after that he managed to have a very successful life. Thanks to my father my sister and I lived a very comfortable life. We never had the same struggles. I should also say thanks to my mother as well :) As she worked hard too. She also came from a very poor and difficult background. But she worked very hard as well. They both did extremely well for themselves. They were able to provide us with opportunities, so we also have a comfortable life and our dc too. It is possible to achieve.

I agree with you, who you are born to and in what circumstances have a huge and far reaching effect on how your life works out. I think that inequality can begin the womb, the child of a well off, well nourshished mother who has planned her pregnancy and has supportive partner is already off the starting blocks of life with an advantage. However, reading your post, I am struck by how well you express yourself, how self aware and reflective you are and these are talents. You sound like a good friend too, I see that people have already suggesting ways of studying and maybe getting qualifications that could lead the way to better paid work where you can use your talents. I appreciate that this is not easy, especially when you may not be feeling confident and supported

Your post has made me tear up @Mooshamoo

Life is so unfair. I’ve tried so hard to break the cycle of poverty from my own childhood, I’ve been lucky in my career. But the inherent trauma of my upbringing looms constantly. I have crippling anxiety which is particularly cruel right now and I’m not sleeping.

I won’t offer any patronising advice. But I’m pulling up a chair to sit with you. Solidarity.

Yawn Yawn! Which government in any country has ever tried to tackle the inevitable gap between richer and poorer?

This.

It’s difficult. You wouldn’t want to make poverty an ACE as plenty manage to provide a happy childhood despite there being little money (whereas parents who abuse or neglect their children, or who are addicts, aren’t providing a happy childhood whether they have money or not). But poverty makes it objectively harder to avoid ACEs and money can make it objectively easier to avoid the consequences of ACEs.

(I grew up with several ACEs in a rich family. I’ve managed to avoid the poverty trap, though my professional life is the only part where I function. My personal life is DOA.)

I don't think rich equals caring parents.
Caring parents regardless of wealth will give you the necessary support to enable you to make changes. With that said, it is tougher to improve yourself without support but not impossible. You need to be prepared to work three times as hard, be resilient and organsied.

Some people can't do this for themselves but can for their children, which is why quite a lot of professionals have immigrant parents who are in low paid jobs. They know that education is the key to a better life, so aspirational working class parents target any good school be it state, grammar or private. The people stating the narrative that WC can't get into grammar schools make me laugh, as in reality it is WC families driving the increase in 11+ tutors.

OP, your life will never change if you continue to use your inadequate parents as the excuse. The only way you will change things is by you taking decisions that move you on, there comes a time when you have to accept that the motivator in your life is you and you alone. What happened in the past is not a motivation, it is a starting point and it is one you want to move on from, not stay stuck in.

Most libraries have an on line reading platform - like Kindle but free. Libby etc.

Some people are somewhat deluded if they don't think their great start in life was a HUGE contributory factor in where they currently are in life.

I'm in a good place. My upbringing was instrumental.

I understand and also feel more needs to be done to alleviate the attainment gap in early years education. Of course some children from bad backgrounds get on in life but it is the minority and life remains a struggle for some.

I come from a working class family and my upbringing was very stable (2 parents, one full time on good money, one part time). Even though I was lucky to have 2 caring parents I see the difference between myself and some of the more middle class families we knew and people I know now. There are lots of solicitors and engineers, children who grew up and moved all over the world in professional jobs. We were ok for money, but weren’t aspirational. The aim was just to get a job, not have a career.

I have a picture of my nephew and my best friend's daughter at 3. At 18, both left home - one went to Oxbridge and the other to a long stay psychiatric unit. Very sad.

I agree op

Yes, it is luck of birth.

When I see someone who is top of their game at something: sport, academia, music, whatever. And they are hailed as the best. I think "well yeah, they're good. But they're really just the best of the bunch of people that has the means and the support and the privilege to practice that."

There's literally 1000s of people who may be inately gifted at tennis, drawing, whatever....but they have been slogging their guts out in Tesco since age 15.

Life is a lottery OP, and it's not fair

Any discussion on mn regard social mobility & inequality inevitably gets derailed by worthy anecdotes of plucky poor people who did well. Proceeded to good career and financial stability despite growing up poor. The booming inference is always well if they (poor upbringing) got out it’s because they worked hard,wanted it….others don’t get out because they lack ambition and don’t work hard

mn loves a plucky against the odds story, it protects the ego and conscience of the reader. So they don’t feel bad that kids grow up hungry, temporary accommodation lasts years,and we systematically fail families. Much easier to cling to anecdotes of plucky grafters who work their way out then look at the obstacles and inequalities the poor encounter

@Mooshamoo I'm sorry about your childhood experince and you certainly had some real challenges. However you're in one of the richest countries in the world where education etc is free and social mobility has never been higher. Regardless of family circumstance, this is one of the best places to be born in the world and is why we have literally millions of immigrants coming or attempting to come here, even risking their lives to do so and skipping other safe Western countries.

You have to take responsibility for what is in your control i.e. working hard at school, getting good/reasonable grades, going for jobs which have good earning potential etc. Yes you didnt have the same advantage as the average wealthy person which makes certain things easier BUT you dont need this advantage. You had (and have) every chance to have an excellent standard of living so you need to stop blaming others and focus on what YOU can do. I personally know many people, especially from immigrant families, from significantly worse conditions of what you describe who are doing great and in many cases much better than the British born here, including some wealthy peopl. Why? Because they work hard and focus on education and instead of envying others, take advantage of the wonderful opportunities this country offers for everyone.

I hear you OP. I grew in poverty because of Dad's alcoholism. I know what it is to watch your Mum be beaten up by your Dad.
I decided that wasn't the life for me and I studied hard to get a degree and axcareer and a way out of there. I volunteered at Samaritans and Guides and as well as helping others it helped me, in that I made lovely friends.
In done ways my early experiences have greatly benefitted me, I have real depth of understanding of what others are going through, I am really good with money (if you don't know where the next penny is coming from, you don't waste it) and I really appreciate the stable environment that my own DC grew up in.
You have it within you to make things change.

Life is very unfair sure
you could have been born into poverty in Ethiopia, Afghanistan or Pakistan 🙄
as far as women from these countries are concerned you are very privileged…

It isn't just MN. It is human nature to wnat this. I think truly acknowledging what an unjust system people on this earth are born into would overwhelm some people. It is by luck that we are even born into stable countries never mind have stable parents etc etc. We want to believe that anyone and everyone can overcome anything so we don't have to feel any guilt over our lot.

I see you point but I really don't think it's that polarised.

May parents had plenty of money and were also abusive, didn't care that my brother abused me and then when we were adults they bought him a house and gave me fuck all.

He's lived off their money his entire adult life (he's now nearly 50) and I've been no contact with them for years, making my own way in life. He'll inherit their millions and I won't. Ah well.

That said, I do appreciate the priveleges that growing up with money gave me, my parents were also very education focussed so I was very lucky to do well in school (state comprehensive) and Uni then Master's (self funded as a mature student) and I love my job. I don't take that for granted.