To think it's not a foregone conclusion that Labour will win the next election?

[flashbac]

I am seeing things here and there predicting Keir Starmer being our next prime minister etc, as if its already been decided.

I won't be voting for them under Keir that's for sure. Their stance on Gaza is the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't care if the Tories get in again. I am so disenfranchised I dont give a shit and at least with the Tories its "better the devil you know" and not Labour pretending they give a shit about people/human rights.

Yeah, everything is rosy. Nothing to see here. 😁

Evidence for this Labour discontent please? 20pts plus ahead? things are indeed looking rosy.

Don't see any sign of rebellion or any other potential leader.

The Tories on the hand ...... even Sunaks own back benchers are describing him as a car crash.

As a One Nation Tory, my vote is winnable by the most sensible set of policies proposed in the upcoming GE manifestos, from either party. I'm not rich enough to participate in the sleazy back-hander deals, nor so stupid that I believe in handing out benefits to everyone who pleads.

@Papyrophile - I am going to challenge you a bit on that one. If we are talking about Anglo Saxon Attitudes (hem) I can look at the current Conservatives who would not meet your description either.

I'm not one who is a proponent for diversity. I've had a Conservative supporter on here tell me that I don't live here because I have my tweedy high Tory relatives, and that I should approve of Rishi Sunak because he is an example of diversity. To me this is beyond patronising.

My point might be that diversity politics is being played by both parties, albeit for different purposes. And the "fig leafing" by the Conservatives is to me not a great development either. The hinterland of both leading parties should bear looking at, might you say?

All he said was Margaret Thatcher sought to drag Britain out of its stupor by setting loose our natural entrepreneurialism.. Not even that she succeeded. It’s a simple factual statement, he didn’t give any kind of opinion.

Okay👌 I'm sure that reasonable Momentum contingent will look at the wider context.

I'm absolutely convinced that Labour will win,.still. But it is interesting to see the Herculean acts of unnecessary self sabotage that pp's have spoken about come in to play like this.

I agree @bombastix . I am thoroughly disenchanted with both major parties. I think (by a hair) that Labour would be a better government next time round, because they have been out of office for 13 years so might have some fresh ideas. But the really challenging topics (Health, education and social care, so also fiscal policies) will be the same for any new administration. I read that Labour will go harder on the wealthy, but anyone over 50 knows that it is near impossible to trap them into paying tax commensurate with wealth. The properly rich can just relocate to a more favourable domicile and settle down in Sintra or Comporta with another nice house and good schools for their kids.

I'm sure that reasonable Momentum contingent will look at the wider context.

No context is needed, it’s a neutral, factual statement. I doubt Momentum members read The Telegraph anyway, that was entirely tailored for its audience.

I'm not seeing the love 🤷

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-tory-margaret-thatcher-b2457570.html

@Blossomtoes, there's a reasonable element of Momentum? It's very shy about showing its face.

I’m seeing the lying in the mainstream media. How does that sentence possibly translate to “piling on praise”?

Ah, I think you missed the point. I'm demonstrating the division caused with little benefit to show for it. Maybe you read that and think the rest of the Labour party are supportive of the comments?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67604830.amp

Oh, here we go, reasonable Momentum....

*Momentum, the campaign group set up to support Labour's former leader Jeremy Corbyn, said: "Margaret Thatcher represented the opposite of everything the labour movement stands for.

"By praising her, Starmer brings shame on our party."*

Thatcher supported the single market but not what she considered Europe meddling in UK business. Her most loyal cabinet minister Geoffrey Howe resigned over her stance on Europe which lead to her being pushed out of her position of PM

there is no way if she had been in power the UK would have had such sting ties to the EU and her polices were very much mix of hardened right and centre it wasn’t one or the other but very much Thatcherism she aimed to change politics and she single-handedly did

@Papyrophile - the unpleasant truth about British politics is that domestic issues and their resolutions are very difficult. Domestic policy is not where the fun is, which is why invariably PMs of this country get what I call "Churchill Syndrome" and start looking for cheap political thrills abroad.

This last government, which started with a man who was always from the outset about cheap political thrills involving the EU has been a predictable disaster. Their fantasies of power were always about matters outside the UK. I will just be voting for a party that will start to grow the economy and invest in the young. They need it so much.

Thatcher jolted the political mainstream out of its comfortable rut. She understood profit and loss, and that folk get paid better when there is a profit to share. Without businesses succeeding, then it's a scrabble for the scrapings.

Of course not all of the wealthy are tax-dodging scum with no loyalty to the country, so some don’t take up those options. Some are decent and pay their way.

Well Hunt did two good things in his budget. One was the write down for business becoming permanent. Good. Second is the NICs cut which benefits workers (not wealthy pensioners). I did not hear any objections from Labour on those.

Like me @bombastix . Investment and a healthy dose of cost-benefit common sense to build for the future. I don't really care much which side of politics cottons on first, but I would like to think the poorest would be less poor, and the richest much less extravagantly minted.

Folk at the top get paid better - the rest of us are still fighting for scraps

@Fieldofbrokenpromises , we're still here, paying our tax, but we are not wealthy, only modestly successful on the back of 35 years building a small business. But we could up sticks quite easily. No government should be making big noises about killing the geese. They can only be killed once.

Agree totally op. Is starmer even Labour? Sunak has been blessed with his opposition.

Anyone who doesn’t like this country is extremely welcome to try their luck elsewhere

Does he expect complimenting Thatcher, (why?) Will win him back seats in northern england etc.... bizarre...

Folk at the top make serious, weighty decisions to steer the companies they run. The folk who run the machines go home at 5.00 and don't think about work until they clock on again in the morning.