To think it's not a foregone conclusion that Labour will win the next election?

[flashbac]

I am seeing things here and there predicting Keir Starmer being our next prime minister etc, as if its already been decided.

I won't be voting for them under Keir that's for sure. Their stance on Gaza is the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't care if the Tories get in again. I am so disenfranchised I dont give a shit and at least with the Tories its "better the devil you know" and not Labour pretending they give a shit about people/human rights.

It's amazing. For example, my local Boots can scan my face and contrast it against a list of shoplifters. And that's in small bit of suburban London. That is one company, a government will have huge power.

AI is just going to mean you don't have to employ thousands of civil servants to do checks. It's already here for lots of government work, particularly in benefits and tax.

Didn't mean to rude but when 2 posters never agree on a subject, best to move on to the next one!

Same with Australia, multiple reasons why it worked there but would never work here and i don't think the push back of boats was designed to deal with migrants working illegally, do you.

Off topic, but I have just heard that Alistair Darling died today. He was an excellent MP and a very cool head during the 2008 GFC. His book about it is one of the most readable political memoirs.

Alastair Darling was a gent. I had a colleague who worked with him during the financial crisis and remarked on how well run his Treasury was.

Also a fan of his quiet but impassioned rebuttal of the parochial SNP and their no true Scot schtick during the independence referendum.

A class of his own.

Yep, he will be much missed.

Unfortunately, post Trump, politics in todays world is for very different type of person.

Yes. Suella "Powell was a liberal" Braverman got an award from the Spectator last night. Bloody hell

I was so sorry to hear about Darling. He didn’t get any of the credit he deserved for steering us through the 2007 crash and its aftermath. We need some more politicians like him now.

I loved Alistair Darling. So calm in a crisis.

This was when proper politicians were in charge. Not the idiots we have now.

Right, so I’m fact the cards are just incidental and what you actually want is a massive increase in spending on enforcement and huge investment in screening everyone, every day to ensure they are entitled to services they are accessing. It’s fine to suggest this, just don’t dress it up as simple advocacy of ID cards, because it is much, much more.

The time for ID cards has come and gone. If Blair had got them 20 years ago as he aimed, then fair enough. But it's a bit stupid, today, with far superior technology, to think about introducing something so antiquated as a plastic card.

Iphones use face recognition, as do supermarkets to identify "banned" shoppers, as do councils and the police on street cameras. Police, councils, car parks use reg no plate recognition cameras for parking fines, traffic violations, etc. New cameras can identify drivers using mobile phones.

It's the future. Rather than denying the inevitable, we'd be better campaigning for stronger controls to prevent abuse.

The cost of AI is much less than thousands of civil servants to record, cross check and enforce. It's cheaper and more sophisticated. I totally agree the challenges will actually be privacy but the Government will already have very good arguments re the prevention of crime, getting value for money and management of public services to do this. It's happening now.

Facial recognition has a long way to go before becoming reliable enough. It's a paradox not well understood, but the larger the volume of rerecords, the less accurate it becomes - so it's great for iPhones where it's only looking for one or two matches from a list of one or two. It's OK for passport e-gates where it just needs to match your face to the image it just read from your passport. It's even OK for finding people in a population of a few dozen banned shoplifters.

What is very shaky for now is the ability to reliably identify you from a database of millions, and that will be true for some time.

Also, presumably everyone needs to have a record in the database to be recognised as a deserving recipient - how will all those images be collected?

At least one of the Baltic countries - I think it's Estonia - has a full digital ID programme, and all government services and entitlements are processed through it. So it can be done, but obviously we would be dealing with a much larger population and hundreds of fiefdoms and siloes all constructed piecemeal so integrating the systems would be a nightmare.

Yes they have a population of about 1.3 million as opposed to ours of somewhere between 60 and 90 milliion.
Also I suspect the turnover of people moving to and from Estonia is much lower.
I am sure with our outstanding record on government IT systems there would be zero chance of any problems.

Hang on, MB use cameras look at the number plate to get who is using the 'phone, not the persons face! that would only be looked at if you disputed the fine, as is done already with some front facing speed cameras.

Bio metrics, such as used in passports is here already, the DB is there, would be a (relatively) simple process to adapt this to a card.

As Germany does with its biometric ID card.

Without an ID card, people who for whatever reason, live under the radar, can use relatively easy ways to gain unemployment, access healthcare etc, no point having a photo camera using an AI look up, if that person isn't on its DB.

Are we so "special" that we, unique in all of Europe, don't need one?

The point you are still missing is that even with biometrics (stored facial or other data), the "card" is only one small part.

In order to get the "benefits" (are we really saying we want to turn people away from doctors and hospitals for no ID?) we would need to have a whole new framework of admin in which every service demanded ID for every interaction.

Even if largely automated this would require significant investment.

How do you imagine an ID card would stop people working illegally? Employers already have a theoretical duty to check ID in any case - so the issue isn't lack of an ID card, it's lack of enforcement of existing laws.

In 2019 it is estimated 6% of Germans made use of the electronic features of their ID cards.

Actually @Fieldofbrokenpromises , I almost think I am at the stage of thinking the UK is at overload. I would not have a problem with seeking medical attention for a child, but I recall taking my child to a medical centre in Oman and being refused treatment.

We went to Sri Lanka 15 years ago and the Sri Lankan housekeeper returned from a UK visit very cross because her expected medical procedure had been refused by the NHS.

In order to get the "benefits" (are we really saying we want to turn people away from doctors and hospitals for no ID?) we would need to have a whole new framework of admin in which every service demanded ID for every interaction

Err yes! if its not an emergency, then why the heck should anyone not entitled to be here in the UK be treated?

We already have umpteen ID requirements, having a single ID would save time and money & in the long run, we'd get rid of whole areas of admin and differing databases.

You really have to ask yourself why almost all European countries have ID cards if it were so stupid an idea.

I am not pro ID cards because really I do not want, say the police, to be able ask me for my papers just for existing. That is a ticket for abuse.

But accessing public services is something else. Or receiving benefits, or paying tax. It seems reasonable to account for who you are at that point.

The thing is that AI probably will make that much easier to do - buts the old chestnut of the integrated government database (see Yes Minister) which never goes anywhere. Is increased migration finally the thing that gives it momentum? Maybe. Labour have historically been pro this stuff more than the Tories.

Germany has high number undocumented migrants, one of highest in EU and also ID cards

I’d be interested in how people access healthcare in that case

Jobs are easier you just need to know someone willing to pay cash, I assume. And with a large proportion undocumented it gets easier

I’ve always been asked for evidence of passport (or other right to work) when applying for a job anyway

I don’t think ID cards will sort out the issues, see Germany

On another note I’ve lived in three countries for a long period and none required ID cards, and personally I’d look at other solutions first.

I’m not sure they’d change much in any case

Recent estimates (2022) suggest it is, in the UK, between 800,000 and 1.2 million people, a larger proportion of the population than in comparable countries such as France, Spain, Switzerland and Portugal, i don't know about you but i find that rather worrying.

TBF @EasternStandard you and i are unlikely to be touting for cash, irregular employment on say a building site, car wash or gardening business.

Well, i'm not lol!

I've just been listening to Robert Peston being interviewed on Times Radio (promoting new book) and one of his thoughts was that asylum seekers and refugees should be provided with temporary digital ID so they can work while their applications are being processed. In care, casual labour, fruit-picking or digging leeks. The obvious implication being that if someone takes up work like that and gets a decent report from the employer, then that works in favour of their application while keeping tabs on them. Surely better than a person absconding from detention into illlegitimate economic activity?