To think that you shouldn’t choose to rent an upstairs 2 bed flat if you have 4 noisy kids

[shatteredmama]

Just after your thoughts. We rent a ground floor flat, we expect to hear some of the usual sounds of upstairs neighbours such as footsteps, doors closing, washing machine, Hoover, the odd thud. Am absolutely fine with that.

A new couple moved into the flat upstairs, normal neighbour noises could be heard. No problem with that. Soon after they told me they had lied to our landlord and that it won’t just be the two of them, their 4 boys from the ages of 2 -11 would be coming over from their home country and living in that flat with them. Theirs is a 2 bedroom flat, no outside space, our flats are converted from 1 house. As she told me this she laughed and her exact words were oh you’ll know when they’ve arrived. Things are going to get very noisy!

Since the kids moved in the noise levels are ridiculous. Constant loud bangs, thuds, shouting, squealing, we can hear them running up and down their flat. It isn’t occasional. It’s all day every day as not all of them attend school.

I know kids make noise. On a couple of occasions I’ve knocked on and as nicely and politely as possible explained how it’s impacting us. For example when my child was crying and couldn’t go to sleep at bedtime because all the kids in the room above were jumping off the sofa onto the floor, our lampshade was swinging from the impact. At other times they’ve all been running and screeching so loud it sounds as though they are actually in our flat with us. The neighbours have then shrugged, argued back and said they’d try to keep the noise down but there’s nothing they can do.

I don’t know what we can do other than move out ourselves, but with the housing crisis the way it is, it wouldn’t be easy. I feel angry that they lied to get the tenancy and moved the family in knowing that it would disturb us and make our lives difficult.

Would any of you say I’m justified in feeling this way, any practical advice you’d give?

spirallingdownwards - I didn't mention councils?

Private landlords are also concerned about overcrowding and won't put too many people in a space it is not designed for. I work with an estate agent and have come across several landlords who will only rent to the number of people that they feel is enough for their property, ie not 2 adults 4 kids in a 2 bed place.

Could the landlord not swap your flats so that they’re downstairs and you’re upstairs?

Did I read that correctly? You're mostly upset not because of the noise but because you felt she was unapologetic?

She might have been trying to make a joke of it as a coping mechanism. I'm sure she's aware as the one that lives with them that they're noisy. She probably felt very awkward about the situation.

Like I said before, people don't choose to house 4 children in a little 2 bed flat.

Oh those pesky immigrants 🙄

believe me none of us parents living in flats with no outside space is out of choice it can be miserable at times

We own a ground floor maisonette as a buy to let. A similar situation happened with the flat above. The landlord had been deceived. The poor tenant was tearing her hair out from the noise. It took the landlord eight months to get them to leave. He had to go to court. I hope you can resolve it Op.

I don’t know what we can do other than move out ourselves, but with the housing crisis the way it is, it wouldn’t be easy. I feel angry that they lied to get the tenancy and moved the family in knowing that it would disturb us and make our lives difficult.

and that's why they lied: it's almost impossible for some people to find rental accommodation in the areas they need to be at prices they can afford.

I also note that you have a 'child' and they have 'kids'. Rather telling what you think of them... but please, go ahead an make their lives even harder than it probably already is. I'm sure they don't like living in an upstairs 2 bedroom flat with 4 children either and would much prefer more space and a private garden for them to play in.

Also, Op my tenant used to bang their door when it got too much. It sometimes worked.

You would soon become a nuisance caller if you called 101

Make their lives harder? FFS, they are the ones who chose to have umpteen kids they can't properly house, to move to an area where they can't afford proper housing, and to raise rambunctious, uncontrolled children, and instead of taking them to the park, allow them to jump and leap and scream inappropriately.

None of that is the OP's fault. She is the victim, they are the perps. Soooo fucking tired of shitty parents and their loud obnoxious offspring getting a total pass because "oooh, cost of living..." or "oooh, housing crisis." They wouldn't have a crisis if they had performed any prudent family planning, would they?

Theres no pecking order when it comes to kids and child, they're interchangeable. It says more about what you assume other people are thinking.

She isnt making their lives harder, shes trying to make her familys comfortable. Its unfortunate they have ended up in a 2 bed, being a family of six. However her laughing about it and the fact she already knew they would be noisy to outsiders shows her lack of empathy for others, so why is it so many posters like yourself are offering them a wealth of empathy. I'm tempted to believe it's to fulfill a need to be the "underdogs hero" when in reality if you were faced with he same dilemma, you wouldnt be so empathic and willing to make excuses.

But surely it's not illegal for a landlord to not want 6 people living in a 2 bedroom flat. They presumably wouldn't rent to 6 adults, so it's not specifically a child issue.

(I know this is an issue generally, and obviously if a landlord won't rent a 2 bedroom flat to, for example, a couple and their one child, that's not ok)

Depends on what noise it is. The noises the OP describes being particularly bothered by are thuds, jumping/running etc. That would go away if they swapped flats. Shouting & squeaking wouldn’t, admittedly, but if you’re above a noisy flat it’s easier to soundproof the floor yourself so you hear less. And sometimes you get over sensitised to a particular type of noise (my upstairs neighbours clicky heels on bare floorboards, grr) whereas other noise you’re less bothered by (my downstairs neighbours’ toddler tantrums).

Maybe OP can’t or won’t swap - the flats might not be identical. But it’s at least a possibility if they both rent, and from the same LL, in a way it’s not if you own and you’re completely stuck.

The worst noises from an upstairs flat (for me): kitchen noise, loud cackling/screeching, musical instruments, door slamming.

From a downstairs flat:
Thumping, jumping and humping.

I guess it depends on what you find most annoying out of each list really.

I haven't read the thread nor do I have any legal knowledge about overcrowding etc, so I apologise if this has been said before or my data is incorrect.
Speak to the mother and calmly tell her that in the UK 6 people in a 2 bedroom flat is considered overcrowding and their landlord-tenant contract will be considered null and void. AFAIK and based on various reality TV shows about London housing the landlord will get into trouble if there's any suspicion that he knew.
However that you know finding a flat is hard and therefore you'd like to help them by not escalating the situation especially coming into winter, if she in return makes sure the children are less noisy. You have children yourself so you probably know some hints and tips.
Four young children and their belongings are easily noticed, possibly by neighbours or if any plumbing or heating problems need to fixed by the landlord. If the boiler breaks down they cannot live with no hot water or heating for days or weeks.

Always lovely to see the "why have umpteen kids in the first place" lot are alive and kicking on this thread.

Newsflash: children are not a commodity that only the rich and privileged are entitled to. Nobody owes you an explanation for why they have children, how many they have, are choosing childfree etc That's not the issue here.

The use of the word "choose" in the title and ops admittance that she was more bothered by the woman's attitude than the noise itself tells me all i need to know here.

All the preachy po faced types would no doubt be up in arms if this was their lives being made a misery in this way. These brats sound feral and not just making normal kid noises.

Given how hard it is to evict even the feckless who don’t pay their rent I can’t imagine they’d get chucked out any time soon but why does the fact there’s a housing crisis mean the OP has to tolerate anti social behaviour. They could have 4 kids in the flat and choose to act like decent people, but they aren’t.

As for the kids aren’t the preserve of the wealthy no they aren’t, But it is irresponsible to have more children than you can feasibly support. I always wanted 3 kids. I have 2. Because that was as many as I could comfortably support.

I was with OP for the most part until that comment about the neighbors attitude and lack of apology being the real thing she's angry about it. Makes me wonder if the noise is actually fairly minimal but she feels a personal vendetta at this point.

Either way, the comments suggesting she try to have 4 children evicted, potentially homeless, in the middle of winter because she felt a bit slighted are perfectly modern Britain. Ghoulish.

Oh please🙄You'd be complaining if you were on the receiving end.

It’s also easy to sit behind a screen and make preachy po faced comments when it’s not your life being made a misery by people like this..

Yes, it is depressing when people like the OP’s neighbours break their tenancy agreement and act in such a selfish, entitled way not giving 2 shites about the misery they and their feral brats cause others.

why don’t you pm the OP your address and the family from hell can move in near you?

This^
It's understandably frustrating for you but equally with options so limited, expensive and competitive now I can fully understand why they've done what they had to do to be able to have their children live with them. As most parents would want. The noise you are describing is normal household noise for a household with youngish children. They have a right to enjoy their home which for children means playing and being noisy. I'm sure it's not easy for the parents to manage in a 2 bed flat either especially if they've had a period of separation from their children and the kids are adjusting to a new home, country and care providers. That's a lot. You also don't know if the kids have additional needs/ trauma etc.

Your options are to make a noise complaint to your landlord (I personally wouldn't where children are involved but it's your choice to make), or if you don't want to hear your upstairs neighbours- to move. Or you try to make an agreement with your neighbour about noise that reflects your child's bedtime. But as they've said, they won't always be able to keep their kids quiet at a set time.

Some of your kids must have been feral as well if this sounds like normal child noise. No my kids weren’t totally silent when they were young but they certainly didn’t scream, shout, run around constantly and repeatedly jump off sofas

I think you can choose wherever you bloody well like to live, kids or no kids. You can always move. Don't live on a lower level flat if you don't like noise.

It's the use of the word CHOOSE for me...

OP might I suggest that you simply choose to go live in a nice, isolated mansion somewhere far from any devilish brats? Seems to me that your CHOICE to live in a rented downstairs flat isn't working out so great.

If it's preachy to think that a family of six shouldn't be made homeless because OP was sad about a lack of apology from the mum then I'm more than happy to be preachy 😁

What an original reply, another typical response from behind a screen.

But everyone has an obligation to make sure their feral offspring aren't bothering others. Cramming four kids into one bedroom, never taking them to the park, laughing about the nuisance to the neighbours, etc., is all-around shitty parenting.

And yes, people ARE accountable for how many kids they choose to produce.