Page 22 | To think that net immigration…

Libertass · 2023-11-23T13:14:41+00:00

Of 745,000 people a year isn’t what the 17 million people who voted for Brexit in 2016 thought they were voting for? YABU = Yes, this is what Leave supporters voted for. YANBI = No, they didn’t vote for this.

Havanananana · 27/11/2023 18:42

"745,000 extra people a year is still going to mean a massive amount of the countryside being built on."

The UK population is NOT growing by 745,000 a year. That's the net immigration figure, but because more people are dying than are being born, overall population growth has been steady at around 250,000 a year for the last many years, even with the levels of net immigration of recent years.

This is still an increase, but it does not need "a city the size of Leeds" (as one person wrote earlier) to be built every year, and does not imply that a "massive amount of the countryside" needs to be built on. There are brownfield sites. There are ways of rejuvenating towns using higher-density housing than the UK currently has. Not everyone needs (or can afford) a semi-detached 4-bedroom square box with room for a pony, but these are what make the biggest profits for developers, so these are what they build. In other countries one- and two-bedroom apartments are the norm for younger people, and also for older people who no longer need a huge house and can no longer maintain a big garden.

There are also estimated to be a million properties currently unoccupied - from luxury apartments in London bought as "investments" to rows of houses in areas where there are no longer any jobs. I agree, building over the green fields in the south of England is not environmentally sound, but that's not the only answer. Seeing something significant, plausible and achievable from the "Levelling up" Minister other than his usual waffle and slogans would be a start.

jgw1 · 27/11/2023 18:47

Havanananana · 27/11/2023 16:27

Well we don't have enough affordable housing for the people already here ...

So I can't see how increasing the population by 745,000 through immigration in just one year is not going to make the situation a whole lot worse.

This conflates two issues.

The lack of affordable housing has been caused by a number of factors - the sell-off of Council housing, no rent caps, poor planning laws that allow developers to build a few luxury houses when what is needed is more affordable homes, the concentration of investment in certain parts of the country while other parts have been left to decay, the low taxation of capital gains made by speculators and landlords, the proliferation of holiday lets and Airbnb, and the huge influx of money into the UK property market (much of it "funny money") from overseas, to name just a few.

Even with immigration, overall population growth in the UK has been stable at around 250,000 a year, or 0.3%, which is regarded as population stagnation. Of course immigration adds to the demand for housing, and the immigrants want to live where there are jobs (just like everyone else does) but these places are also the places where there is the greatest shortage of housing.

The housing situation could, and should, be being addressed by the Housing Minister. This week's Minister is apparently Lee Rowley (I had to look it up) who has been in post for less than a month. There have been 15 Housing Ministers since this government came to power in 2010. Formulating and then enacting a housing policy does not seem to be a priority for them, and whenever they do make a decision, it often appears to be more influenced by the property developers (who also happen to be big donors) rather than by the needs of the population.

Its communist to want to discuss why there is a housing distribution crisis in this country, please don't do it again.

jgw1 · 27/11/2023 18:54

In other countries one- and two-bedroom apartments are the norm for younger people, and also for older people who no longer need a huge house and can no longer maintain a big garden.

When I was young I lived in a 25m2 studio apartment on the outskirts of Tokyo quite happily. An equivalent apartment simply does not exist in London. Why not?

SoMuchSimpler · 27/11/2023 19:02

@Havanananana The latest figures I can find are from 2021: 694,685 live births and 666,659 deaths. 2020 was 681,560 births and 689,629.

That's rather at odds with "The UK population is NOT growing by 745,000 a year. That's the net immigration figure, but because more people are dying than are being born, overall population growth has been steady at around 250,000 a year for the last many years, even with the levels of net immigration of recent years.", which seems to be implying that there are 500,000 more deaths than births annually.

DogsDinner · 27/11/2023 19:06

The number of births in the U.K. is almost identical to the number of deaths. The increase in population comes almost entirely from net immigration.

Last year, we did indeed add 745,000 people to the population from net immigration, but I guess we are never going to agree about the meaning of the word net!

greengreengrass25 · 27/11/2023 19:08

DogsDinner · 27/11/2023 17:50

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but however much we reform the housing system, 745,000 extra people a year is still going to mean a massive amount of the countryside being built on.

We've now had over 20 years of mass immigration, yet we still apparently need more people! Perhaps our take from that should be that it's not working, and we need to find another way of dealing with an ageing population.

Yes this is what I don't understand

Angrycat2768 · 27/11/2023 20:25

jgw1 · 27/11/2023 18:54

In other countries one- and two-bedroom apartments are the norm for younger people, and also for older people who no longer need a huge house and can no longer maintain a big garden.

When I was young I lived in a 25m2 studio apartment on the outskirts of Tokyo quite happily. An equivalent apartment simply does not exist in London. Why not?

I think maybe part if it is that people do not see owning their own home as something they need to do. They rent long term with secure tenancies so can up and downsize when they need and homes are homes, not investments. If you don't need a 5 bedroom house because you live on your own you don't rent one.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 27/11/2023 20:36

It’s a Ponzi scheme (the “need” for immigrants)

Xenia · 27/11/2023 20:45

We have moved from fairly stable population figures to 745k net immigration a a year now, an unprecedented number. I don't know what proportion of voters in the UK want 745k a year or double that or none but neither Labour or the Tories seem to very different on the issue and both have ruled over massive increases in the amount of legal immigration. Europe is in crisis over it. Our enemies are using immigration at a tool - bussing people to borders, Russia letting them through into Finland without papers and even Pakistan expelling 1.7m Afghans and I believe Iran is now expelling Aghans too. The US has masses of people in tents etc in Chicago and NY and they just cannot cope with the people who keep coming and coming. We probably need a new international agreement about stopping not just economic migrants but some asylum seekers too simply because of lack of resources and potential climate change.

jgw1 · 27/11/2023 20:47

Xenia · 27/11/2023 20:45

We have moved from fairly stable population figures to 745k net immigration a a year now, an unprecedented number. I don't know what proportion of voters in the UK want 745k a year or double that or none but neither Labour or the Tories seem to very different on the issue and both have ruled over massive increases in the amount of legal immigration. Europe is in crisis over it. Our enemies are using immigration at a tool - bussing people to borders, Russia letting them through into Finland without papers and even Pakistan expelling 1.7m Afghans and I believe Iran is now expelling Aghans too. The US has masses of people in tents etc in Chicago and NY and they just cannot cope with the people who keep coming and coming. We probably need a new international agreement about stopping not just economic migrants but some asylum seekers too simply because of lack of resources and potential climate change.

Its the will of the people.

We voted for Brexit to take back control of our borders.

DogsDinner · 27/11/2023 21:59

Jgw1, your response is completely facetious. You know as well as the next person this is not the will of the people. Name one politician that has told the truth about their intentions with regards to immigration in the last two decades.

We do have control of our borders! How is it the voters' fault if politicians continuously lie about how they're going to use that control?

greengreengrass25 · 27/11/2023 22:07

Do you remember how nasty Gordon brown to the voter who voiced her concerns about immigration years' ago. Nothing has changed

NobodysMummy · 27/11/2023 22:15

Unfortunately yes, and have been doing that for years. Throwing our own young 'uns on the scrap heap to save a few quid. No wonder it's all ending in tears.

Appleandoranges · 27/11/2023 22:18

We've got an ageing population. Significant proportion of that figure will be carers and NHS staff. Migration was probably going to rise whether or not Brexit happened because of ageing population. What Brexit has probably meant is a greater proportion of migrants from countries from further away and less from Europe. Unemployment is relatively low in the UK. But we have relatively large proportion of economically inactive people - those who have left the workforce voluntarily.

Crikeyalmighty · 27/11/2023 22:33

@greengreengrass25 totally disagree - I've re read it again- Gillian Duffy if anyone wants to google it, you can find the full transcript and I 100% agree with Gordon Browns assessment - although might have been wiser to have been off mic. It wasn't just about immigration though . She was ignorant and plain rude about all kinds of things.

She would be having a triple fit these days .

DogsDinner · 27/11/2023 22:35

Appleandoranges · 27/11/2023 22:18

We've got an ageing population. Significant proportion of that figure will be carers and NHS staff. Migration was probably going to rise whether or not Brexit happened because of ageing population. What Brexit has probably meant is a greater proportion of migrants from countries from further away and less from Europe. Unemployment is relatively low in the UK. But we have relatively large proportion of economically inactive people - those who have left the workforce voluntarily.

Out of 1.1 million visas given out in the last year, less than 100k went to doctors, nurses and care staff combined.

jgw1 · 27/11/2023 22:51

DogsDinner · 27/11/2023 21:59

Jgw1, your response is completely facetious. You know as well as the next person this is not the will of the people. Name one politician that has told the truth about their intentions with regards to immigration in the last two decades.

We do have control of our borders! How is it the voters' fault if politicians continuously lie about how they're going to use that control?

If voters didn't know that Boris Johnson was lying, then they clearly hadn't paid much attention to his previous record when they voted for Brexit and for him as Prime Minister in 2019.

HannibalHeyes · 28/11/2023 00:36

Crikeyalmighty · 27/11/2023 22:33

@greengreengrass25 totally disagree - I've re read it again- Gillian Duffy if anyone wants to google it, you can find the full transcript and I 100% agree with Gordon Browns assessment - although might have been wiser to have been off mic. It wasn't just about immigration though . She was ignorant and plain rude about all kinds of things.

She would be having a triple fit these days .

Yep, all he did was call her a "bigoted woman". And he was 100% correct.

bluewanda · 28/11/2023 06:48

QueenCamilla · 23/11/2023 17:38

@Mycatsgoldtooth

You must be not far away from me.

We have bylaws in my area to stop the proliferation of HMOS. They are (were) beautiful Victorian residential areas. It enrages me beyond belief when some fat-cat council official - who without fail lives elsewhere - fights to approve yet another conversion. The reasoning always is "affordable housing". Well, my arse, if cramping 7 bedrooms in a 2.5 bedroom terrace is so desirable for the people of this country, then why the feck were the historic "overcrowded slums" demolished as late as 80's?? A lick of Magnolia, a couple fire-doors and they'd be good to go!

Students?? Doctors?? Have a look at the faces on my street and point them out to me. I must be blind.

Do we live in the same place? FWIW I couldn’t agree more.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 28/11/2023 07:51

HannibalHeyes · 28/11/2023 00:36

Yep, all he did was call her a "bigoted woman". And he was 100% correct.

Show quote history

In what way was she bigoted?

jasflowers · 28/11/2023 08:05

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 28/11/2023 07:51

In what way was she bigoted?

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If you heard her subsequent interview on the EU & Brexit, you d understand why.

Wonder what she d make of 745k net migration? was 210k under Brown.

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 28/11/2023 08:07

jasflowers · 28/11/2023 08:05

If you heard her subsequent interview on the EU & Brexit, you d understand why.

Wonder what she d make of 745k net migration? was 210k under Brown.

Show quote history

But Brown wasn’t calling her a bigot on the basis of a later interview, was he. What in the exchange they had constituted bigotry exactly?

Kendodd · 28/11/2023 08:12

jasflowers · 28/11/2023 08:05

If you heard her subsequent interview on the EU & Brexit, you d understand why.

Wonder what she d make of 745k net migration? was 210k under Brown.

Show quote history

Oh I would so love her to be interviewed about that.

jasflowers · 28/11/2023 08:15

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 28/11/2023 08:07

But Brown wasn’t calling her a bigot on the basis of a later interview, was he. What in the exchange they had constituted bigotry exactly?

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She wasn't happy about East Europeans, said they were flocking here, implied for benefits.

Bigotry

obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 28/11/2023 08:21

Hmmm, seems a little tenuous to me. I’m not saying she wasn’t prejudiced. She may or may not have been trying to express a legitimate concern. Dismissing anyone who says anything negative about immigration as a bigot is worrying to me.
I can’t help thinking the roots of the Brexit vote lie in the way Brown behaved.
Also if she was just a bigot as he initially claimed , why didn’t he just maintain his position after being found out saying so?