*trigger* was this a thing in the 90s?

[Buxton87]

I was only 20 (1996) when I had my first 'exam' at the doctors when I said I might be pregnant.

The doctor laid me on the table - said I was probably twenty weeks as per the last date of my period (my dad had died the same year - I was not in a great place). But the thing is, he told me to take off my top to examine my breasts. Was this a normal thing back then??

My partner at the time was waiting in reception. My son is amazing and we co-parented after only two years together, but everything has been good.

I had another child 15 years later and it was a totally different experience (NHS-wise!) It's been almost thirty years and I'm still upset about it.

I'm an intelligent person and I'm still so angry at the person I was then to not speak up.

So my AIBU:
AIBU - make a complaint
YABU - Forget about it, man!

I’m sorry but logically, if being pale skinned and red haired made a difference to being able to breastfeed then we would still be talking to pale skinned and red haired women about it today.

I have both, I struggled to breastfeed, breastfeeding experts never, ever said I might struggle because of my colouring. I’ve been reading about pregnancy and breastfeeding on mn for years - skin and hair colour are never mentioned. It’s such obvious bollocks.

I’m sorry if you were told it was but it isn’t a thing. It was unnecessary and provides an opportunity that is open to abuse. Women drs doing unnecessary examinations also provides more cover to the men that use them to abuse women.

It’s not women’s fault men want to abuse them - perhaps British men are more abusive than continental ones and that’s why we do intimate examinations less here, rather than it being because prudish patients don’t like it 🙄

I agree, and that’s the thing, you can’t look upon something 3 decades ago with today’s lens. It doesn’t work. You need to look at it through what was the practice at the time. Things have moved on so much now.

doctors got away with being god then, they did what they pleased. Often no chaperone in the room. No discussion on why. No consent. That’s how it was. It’s changed because that wasn’t right, and of course some abused it.

its simply in this specific case, these were routine exams on women at the time, to check the woman could breast feed without known issue, and yes for any lumps, that could be hidden later due to breast swelling. Not all doctors did it, which also adds to the confusion. Age, the specific trust, all comes into it.

Seems odd now, wrong, to an extent. Doctors, male or female just don’t do that now, unless the woman asks for help due to a concern.

No, I was just trying to imply that it was probably men who thought it was necessary.

What were they checking for other than inverted nipples, btw?

This. It wasn't sinister. Nearly every gyna and GP appt included a breast exam. Mammography equipment wasn't as readily available. Breast cancer was finally getting attention in the 80s and 90s.

I think looking back decades for something to be outraged about seldom is productive.

I’m a midwife - only mid 30s so obviously wasn’t practicing in the 90s BUT I have heard of this in midwifery textbooks as ‘normal practice’ in antenatal care historically. The thinking was around signs of pregnancy due to breast changes + evidence of any breast features that may make BF difficult.

as many posters have said: there was little evidence/ point to this which is why advice changes and it was removed along with other non-evidenced practice like routine enemas and shaving.

So no, I wouldn’t say the Dr did anything wrong according to the advice he has access to at the time. Doesn’t stop it being a horrid memory for you though and it’s ok to need to talk about it and get support.

I remember wheb I was 16 in the mid 80s going to the clinic and having a breast exam. This was performed whilst standing and the female doctor lifted up my bra to do it. I have thought for many years what possible clinical use would this have been. No explanation etc, if she had offered to show me how to self exam then it might have had some usefulness.

When I went back 3 months later I saw the same doctor who told me I needed a smear. She then introduced the male medical student and said in a leading fashion "you don't mind do you". I said actually yes, I minded very much and that wasn't happening. But what doctor in their right mind would think that a 16 year old, having their first smear, would be comfortable with the presence and involvement of a medical student. Beggars belief.

This thread has enabled me to gain some closure on an event that still rankled with me.

To all of those on here with truly horrendous experiences.

With all due respect you weren't there so can't possibly know if what happened was normal practice at the time or if it was someone taking advantage of the situation under the guise of normal practice.

Doctor Tutin was accused of sexually assaulting patients between 1981 and 2004. Some of the accusations against him sound very reminiscent of incidents of posters on this thread have shared. He was sentenced to 10 and a half years imprisonment.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/09/gp-molested-25-female-patients-failed-report-decades-doctor/

He isn't a one off either. A quick Google shows that even now similar offences continue to be committed.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/london-south/news/former-gp-jailed-life-sexually-assaulting-patients

Some of the pregnancy related ones seem plausible for the time. I can remember my DM, who had her babies in the 70s, being very surprised when I told her I was pregnant and hadn't been near a GP - just took a pregnancy test bought in a supermarket, then booked in directly with midwife. She was quite shocked that the GP wasn't involved at all in establishing I was pregnant!

Yes it's the consent thing for me too. I very recently had to see a HCP for a potential operation. He stated very clearly, it's up to the team who I'll see if I will need an operation, he was very put out when I told him that's not how consent works. It will be up to me if I have this operation, not them. They can only advise.

So even now consent isnt a thing in the NHS. And that's for a wrist thing.

I opted out of smears because of a terrible awful smear years ago. I still cry at the thought of it. Still occasionally get HCPs trying emotional blackmail to get me to have one. Fucks me off big style. I know the bloody risks, I'd rather die of ovarian cancer or the like than have a smear. If they didnt want women opting out, they should have been more careful then and now. I hear other women say how awful their smear was, I tell them they can opt out too. Until a better way comes along, I'll just keep opting out every five years.

For OP I had a child in 91 and another in 93 and no one asked me to strip off, no one looked at my breasts. No one did anything inappropriate with me then. Before and since yes, not at that time.

In the early 2000s when I was 15/16 I went in the contraceptive injection. Which was given by a male gp every three months and he would make me take my top and bra off every time to ‘examine’ my breasts, I feel so uncomfortable about it now.

Breast exams happened a lot then, there was not the knowledge and information we have now regarding breast cancer detection and diagnosis. These days we rely more on personal exam and observations. By the 1970s the incidence of breast cancer in women was increasing, but mortality rates have decreased by about 45% since the 1980s. I think also communication and 'bedside manner' between doctor and patient have improved greatly during this time!
https://www.breastcanceruk.org.uk/about-breast-cancer/facts-figures-and-qas/facts-and-figures/

Breaat exam was a standard check in antenatal care but has been discontinued now. Mostly about mental heath and BP etc

I'm sorry but that's absolute bullshit.

I shared a story upthread of a male doctor, who I only saw the once, who surprised me with a breast exam when I was a teenager in the 80s.

I'm now 50+ and that remains the only time a health practitioner has ever examined my breasts as a routine check. Many have asked if I am checking my own breasts and made sure I know how to do it properly, but none have insisted on doing it themselves. And what exactly was my risk of BC as a 16-17yo with no symptoms?

Don't diminish or excuse the experiences of other women, or tell women that historical sexual abuse isn't something to be outraged about.

A thread like this will always bring forward the awful experiences that many experienced at the hands of medical professionals. Mine involved a GP and an intimate exam, I've never forgotten it.

For balance though, it is worth bearing in mind that breast exams were a routine part of some pregnancy and contraceptive appointments way back when. They weren't only carried out by men - most of mine were by female nurses when I was having my contraceptive checkups. At the time it was considered that there were valid reasons for carrying out the checks. Times have changed this, and how such exams are carried out when they are needed has also changed, but then they were routine.

I just think it's fair to point out that in the 90's the medical opinion on breast exams was different to now, and that was reflected in medical practice. Also that in the majority of cases they were carried out by a medical professional who had no sexual or abusive urges, they were just routine. Obviously a discussion like this will remind people of trauma and they will relate that, but it's not a representation of the norm. That doesn't invalidate the awful way so many women were treated, but it doesn't give us a balanced view. Breast exam doesn't always equal abuse.

It started off being a question about a pregnant 20 year old having her breasts examined, with Op asking if this was normal in the 90's.

I would bet a very large proportion of male medics who undertake such examinations think about sex before during or after that examination. Some hide it far better than others.

Also the way the NHS is set up, it is (or at least was) easy to engineer such examinations for a lot of patients both those whose condition might warrant it on paper and also those where their symptoms/complaint seemed to have absolutely nothing relevant to the need for a physical exam.

There was a scandal in this country decades ago involving anaesthetised women being used by med students for practice at inserting the coil. Without their knowledge or permission. Must have been over 40 years ago -typical of the era, when women were simply not people.

This still happens in some states in America, sadly.

Twinkletoesandbuttonnose

Truly? That's beyond disgusting.

Also a ginger here. Midwife told me red heads need more pain relief although are more tolerant to pain but also bleed more.

YANBU
something similar happened to me as a teen. I must have been 18/19 and I can’t even remember why I went to the GP and he asked me whether I checked my breasts for lumps. I said no and he said he would show me how to do it.
it made me feel really uncomfortable at the time but I trusted him as being in a professional position. I didn’t complain but always knew it was probably wrong. I always asked for a female GP for many years after that.
I read recently that he’d passed away and wondered how many other young girls he’d done this to

I remember reading an article about 15 years ago. I can’t remember the full tone of the read but one of the things mentioned was that some young male doctors would keep a tally of how many unnecessary breast exams they could carry out. They even had an acronym (UBE?). It stuck with me because a few years previously at the age of 21 I went to see a doctor about something to do with my face and he asked me if a doctor had ever checked my breasts. Like a bloody idiot I took my top and bra off and let him check.

And the answer in my case with two babies born in the early 90s was no. It didnt happen to me and as a CSA survivor I would have been hyper aware.

I had actually read the whole thread but thank you so much for your comment that I should read the whole thread.

I'm still a red head and have oodles of freckles all over my body. My breasts were never examined by a GP or doctor or consultant on either of my pregnancies. I was asked about them but I never had to expose them to anyone. After each birth I was asked how I wanted to feed my babies and I said bottle, so there was no requirement (except if I had developed an infection and I didn't). The only time I've had to have them exposed is when I recently went for a standard mammogram.

I would still like to see the scientific study that Curls referred to in their post that states because you have fair skin tone, you are more likely to have inverted nipples which in turn would be more sensitive and also make breast feeding more difficult for the mother.

@Bloomingmagnolia it's possible that your experience was justified. I also have a pituitary adenoma, which was discovered through various testing which was initially triggered by a lump in my breast. We went all around the hills to get there, but the lump in my breast was apparently caused by a hormone imbalance as a result of the adenoma. Not to minimse or dismiss your feelings, but it's possible they were trying to establish the kind of adenoma and the affects on other parts of your body.