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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rwanda plan

949 replies

AdamRyan · 16/11/2023 23:05

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions.

The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask:

IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this

IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 09:20

youngones1 · 22/11/2023 08:40

It's amazing that it cost the British taxpayer £1m to protect this Somalian rapist's human rights. If a rapist can run up a bill like this before he is deported imagine what the bill would be for someone who hasn't broken the law. It really does show how hard it is to deport someone.

It cost them 20% of that to charter the flight to return him (200k)
And he was having his citizenship revoked- that's not the same as a deportation.
It probably would have been cheaper to keep him in prison here - he got a long sentence for the rape. But there is public pressure to deport people and strip them of citizenship - of course that will be expensive.

Again, citizenship is something that protects all of us - I don't think it should be that easy to remove it.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 09:21

And it's totally irrelevant to the Rwanda plan - unless you think we should also be deporting rapists and criminals there 😲

OP posts:
CaramacFiend · 22/11/2023 09:31

TempestTost · 22/11/2023 00:58

Statistics like this can be difficult to collate, but Ali is considered a reliable writer, so I suspect that she's been honest with her attempts to put these numbers together.

It seems like it should not be a surprise that if you sudden;y have a bunch of people from a very different cultural background, it can cause problems where there are different norms or expectations. If I were to take a guess, I would not be at all surprised to find that there were some class issues at play as well. It's one thing to have a newcomer who has been well educated and has some significant exposure to the norms of western culture, and also has likely interacted more with westerners. But in some countries among the uneducated there can be some really horrible sexual violence.

It is not however considered PC to talk about this by many progressives. And so they can't really offer any solutions.

Agreed.

People are always quick to cry xenophobia but it's no more racist to suggest that people need to respect the law of the country they immigrate to than it is transphobic to raise concerns about the safety of women showering/undressing in front of men.

I do believe that there are real problems with female oppression in the societies many of these men originate from but another big problem is Western liberals being extremely quick to dismiss the actions of people they see as 'oppressed', as if somebody can't simultaneously be oppressed and an oppressor.

This thread is a perfect example of what Ali writes about and I'm sure the German /Swedish police would have loved to have more people like some of the posters on this thread to help silence the pesky victims of sexual assault.

CaramacFiend · 22/11/2023 09:49

AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 07:36

None of that is relevant to your statement Asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics.

This:
"non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions" is basically short hand for anyone who isn't white and says nothing useful about asylum seekers.

Using bare bones numbers to extrapolate causes of crimes is a bad idea. Crime is very related to social class, sentences and prosecution are often influenced by stereotypes. It's impossible to say from those statistics whether "non western immigrants and their descendants" are more likely to commit sex assault because of cultural misogynistic attitudes, or more likely to be arrested and convicted because of racist stereotypes about immigrants.

Oh please. Trying to cherry pick bits from my post doesn't really work when everybody can read the other bits.

You say "None of that is relevant to your statement asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics" yet the figures I've posted show that they're responsible for 30% of gang rapes in some countries and generally over represented in relation to their presence in the community.

I usually detest the term 'white feminism' as it's a favourite of incels trying to shut down women but here I think it's quite apt when we have posters using woke western idealogy to try and shut down the voices of WOC who've actually lived and suffered under these cultures.

Isitsixoclockalready · 22/11/2023 09:51

I certainly wouldn't worry about the government wasting taxpayers money. They are experts in doing that.

Stomacharmeleon · 22/11/2023 10:12

@AdamRyan rapists and criminals should be deported full stop as soon as they serve their sentence.
I am disgusted that was not the case with the sexual abusers in Rotherham.

youngones1 · 22/11/2023 10:49

Perhaps for every asylum seeker who is granted asylum there should be a condition that if they commit a serious crime they will be deported without any rights to appeal. Also, put on a standard commercial flight.

bombastix · 22/11/2023 12:07

There are significant numbers of FNO (foreign national offenders) in UK prisons. Obviously the actual policy is that the judge orders them to be deported from the UK at the end of their sentence.

Tbh I have zero issue with this, and we could have a much more intelligent policy about FNO. One, commercial flights are hopeless because the government cannot control the plane legally, Two, any FNO in prison should be unable to claim any form immigration status at all including asylum and any previous application should be voided. Crime is a choice not an accident and any claim against the UK government can be made from the FNO's country of origin. You do not have to be in the UK to challenge.

AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 14:48

CaramacFiend · 22/11/2023 09:49

Oh please. Trying to cherry pick bits from my post doesn't really work when everybody can read the other bits.

You say "None of that is relevant to your statement asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics" yet the figures I've posted show that they're responsible for 30% of gang rapes in some countries and generally over represented in relation to their presence in the community.

I usually detest the term 'white feminism' as it's a favourite of incels trying to shut down women but here I think it's quite apt when we have posters using woke western idealogy to try and shut down the voices of WOC who've actually lived and suffered under these cultures.

I usually detest the term 'white feminism' as it's a favourite of incels trying to shut down women but here I think it's quite apt when we have posters using woke western idealogy to try and shut down the voices of WOC who've actually lived and suffered under these cultures.

Confused

disagreeing with what someone has written is not "shutting them down" and I highly doubt Hirsin Ali gives two shits about what posters on here think of her.

She's an academic and writer so no doubt very used to having her ideas challenfed

OP posts:
boudiccathecat · 22/11/2023 23:17

Some of the attitudes here explain how the Rotherham grooming gangs were and still are able to operate with impunity

Alexandra2001 · 23/11/2023 07:19

boudiccathecat · 22/11/2023 23:17

Some of the attitudes here explain how the Rotherham grooming gangs were and still are able to operate with impunity

Nope, they broke the law but the Police chose not to enforce it.

Complete opposite to Rwanda where the courts are upholding the law but the authorities are seeking to circumvent.

Children in this country have completely let down by the Government, more important to bribe us all with a tax cut.

boudiccathecat · 23/11/2023 08:11

the majority of these men (and it is men) are economic migrants. What is wrong with them going to a country which is safe and needs inward investment which they will bring with them. Rwanda is not the hell hole s lot of posters seem to think it is. The British Council and British government have been working with Rwanda for decades to improve democracy there.

AdamRyan · 23/11/2023 08:31

boudiccathecat · 22/11/2023 23:17

Some of the attitudes here explain how the Rotherham grooming gangs were and still are able to operate with impunity

Fuck off with that.
There are loads of grooming gangs made up of white people, loads of sex abusers "operating with impunity".
The Daily Mail were forced to print a correction to their story because it was inaccurate.

https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=17841-23

In my opinion, rates of sex offending are high because 1) being "falsely accused" as a man is seen as more serious than being a victim so there is extreme reluctance to convict, 2) its extremely adversarial and too much time is spent raking over the victims to decide if they might be lying, victims who aren't "perfect" don't have their cases taken forward and 3) the system is totally broken, its taking way to long to get to court and cases are dropped too often.

In the case of Rotherham I think that 2) was the biggest problem. Social workers and the police had attitudes that the teenage girls were consenting and didn't pursue action. Even the girls themselves felt like these men were their "boyfriends".

The groomers were born here, they are British. So completely irrelevant to a discussion about Rwanda. Unless you are trying to say we should deport anyone who isn't white if they commit a serious crime. That's racism. And we aren't imperial any more. We can't just exile people.

If we did pursue a policy of exile we should also exile white sex offenders. Russell Brand could go first. Then this lot
https://www.iambirmingham.co.uk/2023/04/05/twenty-one-convicted-largest-child-sexual-abuse-investigation-conducted-west-mids-police/

But it still seems unreasonable to foist dangerous offenders on other countries.

Ruling

https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling?id=17841-23

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 23/11/2023 08:33

boudiccathecat · 23/11/2023 08:11

the majority of these men (and it is men) are economic migrants. What is wrong with them going to a country which is safe and needs inward investment which they will bring with them. Rwanda is not the hell hole s lot of posters seem to think it is. The British Council and British government have been working with Rwanda for decades to improve democracy there.

Edited

The majority have their asylum claims upheld so aren't "economic migrants"

And a court has ruled Rwanda isn't safe. I don't know why you think you know better than the judges who read all the evidence?

OP posts:
Zonder · 23/11/2023 08:49

Thanks for posting these facts @AdamRyan - it's easy for people to get carried away with Daily Fail headlines hearsay.

bombastix · 23/11/2023 08:49

@boudiccathecat - the Rotherham scandal was a disgusting failure by the police and council with vile attitudes of their own. Obviously these girls were all prostitutes in their eyes and then that was the same attitude largely as their abusers. I am not sure religion had much to do with the response of the police and council who had their own regressive and misogynistic ideas about teenage girls who could not have consented in law. They could have attempts to enforce the law, they didn't because imo it was "these girls consent" and then there was the issue of perceived racism.

One thing did emerge from Rotherham which that some offenders were not "British" but just had ILR. They then applied to become UK Citizens and were successful. They should be barred from applying - there is no right to citizenship in the U.K. and obtaining this should be much tougher than it is.

Passepartoute · 23/11/2023 09:07

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 22:34

More than 500 foreign criminals and immigration offenders have been removed from the UK by the Home Office during September.

In total, 533 people were returned, including 105 to Albania on 3 dedicated charter flights and scheduled flights this month.

The Home Office also returned 26 Romanian nationals and 9 individuals to Zimbabwe on separate charter flights.

The foreign national offenders removed had received combined prison sentences of more than 337 years and were convicted of crimes including sexual and violent offences, supplying Class A drugs and facilitating illegal entry to the UK.

To date this year, the UK has removed 8,175 people via enforced, voluntary and other return types, including 2,250 foreign national offenders.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over-500-criminals-and-immigration-offenders-removed

Great, that's the system working as it is supposed to. Criminals being dealt with without it costing us millions. If only the Home Office were as efficient as that normally.

How many home-grown criminals were convicted in the UK over the same period?

jgw1 · 23/11/2023 09:37

boudiccathecat · 23/11/2023 08:11

the majority of these men (and it is men) are economic migrants. What is wrong with them going to a country which is safe and needs inward investment which they will bring with them. Rwanda is not the hell hole s lot of posters seem to think it is. The British Council and British government have been working with Rwanda for decades to improve democracy there.

Edited

I presume that since you don't like economic migrants you also don't like Rishi Sunak who was an economic migrant?

DuncinToffee · 23/11/2023 09:49

Rwanda might well be a great place for economic migrants, or even expats, who choose to go over there.

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 10:07

@jgw1 you said that before. Can you explain that to me? I am not being rude I just don't understand.

DuncinToffee · 23/11/2023 10:38

Sunak held a US Green Card

jgw1 · 23/11/2023 10:41

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 10:07

@jgw1 you said that before. Can you explain that to me? I am not being rude I just don't understand.

Sunak moved from his country of birth to another country to work. ie he was an economic migrant.

I have done the same. I have no problem with economic migrants, one would presume the same is true for Sunak. I guess some people who post on here hate us both for it.

Stomacharmeleon · 23/11/2023 10:47

I think they media have a huge role to play in people's perceptions and I agree it's wrong.

The boats could be stopped tomorrow by working collaboratively with the French. Open a centre and send immigration officers over.

DuncinToffee · 23/11/2023 10:47

jgw1 · 23/11/2023 10:41

Sunak moved from his country of birth to another country to work. ie he was an economic migrant.

I have done the same. I have no problem with economic migrants, one would presume the same is true for Sunak. I guess some people who post on here hate us both for it.

Edited

I came to this country under EU FoM

jgw1 · 23/11/2023 10:52

DuncinToffee · 23/11/2023 10:47

I came to this country under EU FoM

I think that means we are meant to hate you too?

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