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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rwanda plan

949 replies

AdamRyan · 16/11/2023 23:05

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions.

The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask:

IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this

IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Alexandra2001 · 21/11/2023 07:41

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:17

Where? Can you link my quote.

You said several times that is migrants from Muslim countries that are committing sexual assaults referencing Germany and the UK.

Again, as previously asked, what would you do about it?

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2023 09:29

Here is a bit of background on what Germany is looking at.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-migration-asylum-plan-far-right-b2443676.html

It was also agreed that the "feasibility" of assessing claims elsewhere, in a manner loosely similar to how the UK government wishes to do with Rwanda, will be studied. Such an idea is favoured by the opposition to Mr Scholz's coalition government, as well as the centre-right Free Democrats within the coalition itself.
Mr Scholz described the agreement as a “very historic moment” but conceded that a plan to process asylum applications in a non-EU nation may not be possible legally.

Germany to explore Rwanda-style asylum processing plan as it tightens migration rules

The German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, has come under pressure to deal wth a rising number of asylum applications amid rising public concern over levels of migration and growing support for far-right parties

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-migration-asylum-plan-far-right-b2443676.html

jgw1 · 21/11/2023 09:47

Zonder · 21/11/2023 07:32

I'm not sure that Rwanda is that terrible of a country- they operate luxury safaris there so it's hardly Afghanistan

So many countries have continued to be holiday resorts of the wealthy despite what's going on at ground level. Look at South Africa in the height of its troubles. People still visited and had a great time. All stops are pulled out for wealthy tourists. Great money spinner. And not proof of a safe country.

Tourists in Crimea?

TizerorFizz · 21/11/2023 14:12

It’s not about tourism! It’s about is it safe for refugees!? Completely different.

Zonder · 21/11/2023 19:16

Exactly @TizerorFizz

Zonder · 21/11/2023 19:17

jgw1 · 21/11/2023 09:47

Tourists in Crimea?

Send me a postcard!

SoMuchSimpler · 21/11/2023 19:22

Zonder · 21/11/2023 07:09

People said the same about Brexit! All those countries ready to follow suit once they saw what a success it was.
UK isn't the world leader some people say it is. At least not any more.

Edited

I'm quietly hopeful for a 'Hungexit'.

youngones1 · 21/11/2023 22:11

Just heard about a Somalian rapist who went to prison, we then tried to deport and £1m of taxpayers money has been spent on legal fees, and he has only now actually left the country. The system is broken.

GimmeMyMoney · 21/11/2023 22:25

youngones1 · 21/11/2023 22:11

Just heard about a Somalian rapist who went to prison, we then tried to deport and £1m of taxpayers money has been spent on legal fees, and he has only now actually left the country. The system is broken.

We've had to deport quite a few immigrants that have turned out to be murderers/sex offenders. Hope this isn't the average cost!

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2023 22:31

youngones1 · 21/11/2023 22:11

Just heard about a Somalian rapist who went to prison, we then tried to deport and £1m of taxpayers money has been spent on legal fees, and he has only now actually left the country. The system is broken.

£1m?

Can you back up that information?

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 22:34

More than 500 foreign criminals and immigration offenders have been removed from the UK by the Home Office during September.

In total, 533 people were returned, including 105 to Albania on 3 dedicated charter flights and scheduled flights this month.

The Home Office also returned 26 Romanian nationals and 9 individuals to Zimbabwe on separate charter flights.

The foreign national offenders removed had received combined prison sentences of more than 337 years and were convicted of crimes including sexual and violent offences, supplying Class A drugs and facilitating illegal entry to the UK.

To date this year, the UK has removed 8,175 people via enforced, voluntary and other return types, including 2,250 foreign national offenders.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over-500-criminals-and-immigration-offenders-removed

Over 500 criminals and immigration offenders removed

Foreign criminals removed in September had received combined prison sentences of more than 337 years.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over-500-criminals-and-immigration-offenders-removed

AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 22:48

duncin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/24783382/somali-gang-rapist-deported-uk/amp/

It's the fault of "woke" airline passengers apparently

But in reality he came to the UK in 2003, the rape was in 2008, Theresa May stripped him of refugee status in 2015, the failed deportation was 2018 and he was deported just now. The charger flight cost 20% of that 1m, I can believe 15 years worth of legal wrangling costs a lot

Not sure how the outcome would be different under the Rwanda plan?

Gang rapist finally deported after plane mutiny to stop him being kicked out UK

A MIGRANT rapist whose deportation was thwarted by woke airline passengers five years ago has finally been sent home – at a cost of £1million to taxpayers. Yaqub Ahmed, 34, racked up the mamm…

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/24783382/somali-gang-rapist-deported-uk/amp

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 22:49

caramac did you manage to track down the evidence for yesterday's claim?

OP posts:
CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 22:56

AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 22:49

caramac did you manage to track down the evidence for yesterday's claim?

Yes. The source is a book called Prey by Ayaan Hirsi-Ali.

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2023 23:05

That's a no then

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 23:20

Here are some excerpts as requested.

If you leave meat uncovered on the street and a cat eats it, whose fault is it? The problem is not the cat, but the uncovered meat. Growing up, Ayaan Hirsi Ali heard this kind of attitude from her grandmother in Somalia. It’s a loathsome attitude widespread in societies defined by Islamic culture: if only the victim of a sexual assault or rape had stayed at home, or worn her hijab, then no problem would have occurred.

Why have European feminists been conspicuously silent about the rise in sexual violence against women? Part of the answer is that within the feminist movement “the concept of women’s rights yielded to the new ideals of multiculturalism and intersectionality.” Europeans broadly have been impacted by the notion of “multiculturalism,” which I think of as teaching people that it is wrong to judge certain ideas — notably, individual freedom — as superior to the ideas of other cultures, such as the Islamic subordination of women.

“Talking about violence by Muslim men against European women is unfashionable in an age of identity politics, when we are supposed to operate within a partly historical matrix of victimhood.” It is even harder when the topic is a “favorite of Russian agents of disinformation as well as ‘alt-right’ trolls.” She rejects both fashionable denial and xenophobic fearmongering, and instead strives to understand the actual scale of the problem and its causes.

The rates of “either rape or sexual assault went up between 2014 and 2017 in every European country for which data are available” and “in some countries — notably Denmark and England — they went up a lot, roughly doubling in the case of Denmark.” In that country, Hirsi Ali reports, “‘non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions — even though they make up less than 13 percent of the population.” In Germany, asylum seekers constituted only 1 or 2 percent of the population from 2015, but they were “disproportionately responsible for sex crimes included in the statistics, making up nearly 12 percent of suspects by 2018,” and responsible for 16.3 percent of grievous sex crimes, such as rape.

Many asylum seekers from Muslim-majority countries brought with them their society’s endemic contempt for women. She cites a UN survey of more than four thousand men in Morocco, Egypt, Palestinian areas, and Lebanon which found that between one-third and two-thirds of men admitted to sexually harassing women in public. Women are reduced to commodities, useful only for their capacity to bear children, and therefore subjected to a “modesty doctrine.” Hirsi Ali regards such attitudes as tied to and reinforced by Islamic ideas. “More than any other major religion,” she writes, “Islam formalizes the subordination of women.”

Hirsi Ali describes a pattern of government officials looking the other way and staying silent, lest they appear to be xenophobic. Take the incident in Cologne. What was the official response? Police officers on the scene reportedly ignored women who came to them with complaints or else turned them away. A police statement on New Year’s Day claimed the evening had been “largely peaceful.” It was only after a groundswell of posts on social media and coverage in news outlets, that the authorities released information about the attacks and the perpetrators. Moreover, it turned out that smaller-scale gang assaults had occurred that night in Hamburg, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, and Bielefeld.

The pattern extends beyond Germany. That same year in Sweden, at the “We Are Sthlm” summer festival, a group of some fifty young asylum seekers preyed on women at the event. Even though “thirty-eight sex offenses had been reported on girls as young as 14,” Hirsi Ali writes, Swedish police stated that the event had had “relatively few crimes.” Months later, “fearing a backlash like the one that had followed events in Cologne, Swedish police came clean. Revealingly, Södermalm police chief Peter Ågren said that one reason for the cover-up was to avoid provoking racism or ‘play into the hands of the Swedish Democrats,’ Sweden’s rightwing populist party.” Hirsi Ali believes that European leaders have come to fear that if they speak about the rise in sexual violence against women, they would be seen as “xenophobic” or as appearing to give “ground to actual xenophobes.” Instead, they would rather “cover up the problem and leave victims at risk.”

European statistics on sex crimes are a maze, if not a minefield, of inconsistent and changing definitions. Denmark is unusual for making it relatively easy to distinguish immigrant offenders. Since 2015, the country’s share of immigrants from “non-Western countries,” excluding their Danish-born descendants, has risen from around 5% to 6%. Yet from 2015 to 2019 they have accounted for around 11% of convictions for sex offenses and 34% of convictions for rape.

In Germany a new category of “rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases including resulting in death” was introduced in June 2016, making it hard to measure the effect of the migrant influx. Even so, in 2017 and 2018, more than a third of the suspects in the new category were non-Germans. For all sexual-abuse cases, the share of non-German suspects rose from 15% in 2014 to 23% in 2016, 2017 and 2018, and 21% in 2019.

“Non-German” is a broad category. In Germany’s crime statistics, the term zuwanderer, or “newcomers,” was used until 2016 to identify suspects who were asylum applicants, failed asylum seekers and illegal residents. This definition was expanded in 2017 to include successful asylum seekers. From 2017 to 2019, zuwanderer accounted for between 10% and 12% of sex-crime suspects, and around 16% of suspects for rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases. It is unlikely that zuwanderer accounted for much more than 2% of the German population.

In Austria, “crimes or offenses against sexual integrity and self-determination” increased by 53% between 2015 and 2018. Between a quarter and a third of suspects were foreign, but in 2018 only 19.4% of the population was foreign-born. Between 4% and 11% of the suspects were asylum seekers; the share of the population born in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria—among the largest sources of asylum seekers—was only 1.2%.

In the absence of official statistics, the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reviewed the gang-rape cases heard in Swedish courts between July 2012 and December 2017. Of the 112 men convicted, it found that three-quarters were foreign-born (almost all of those from outside Europe), and 30% were asylum seekers.

DuncinToffee · 21/11/2023 23:23

AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 22:48

duncin
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/24783382/somali-gang-rapist-deported-uk/amp/

It's the fault of "woke" airline passengers apparently

But in reality he came to the UK in 2003, the rape was in 2008, Theresa May stripped him of refugee status in 2015, the failed deportation was 2018 and he was deported just now. The charger flight cost 20% of that 1m, I can believe 15 years worth of legal wrangling costs a lot

Not sure how the outcome would be different under the Rwanda plan?

It would have been cheaper to keep him in a UK prison

Thanks for the link Smile

TempestTost · 22/11/2023 00:58

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 23:20

Here are some excerpts as requested.

If you leave meat uncovered on the street and a cat eats it, whose fault is it? The problem is not the cat, but the uncovered meat. Growing up, Ayaan Hirsi Ali heard this kind of attitude from her grandmother in Somalia. It’s a loathsome attitude widespread in societies defined by Islamic culture: if only the victim of a sexual assault or rape had stayed at home, or worn her hijab, then no problem would have occurred.

Why have European feminists been conspicuously silent about the rise in sexual violence against women? Part of the answer is that within the feminist movement “the concept of women’s rights yielded to the new ideals of multiculturalism and intersectionality.” Europeans broadly have been impacted by the notion of “multiculturalism,” which I think of as teaching people that it is wrong to judge certain ideas — notably, individual freedom — as superior to the ideas of other cultures, such as the Islamic subordination of women.

“Talking about violence by Muslim men against European women is unfashionable in an age of identity politics, when we are supposed to operate within a partly historical matrix of victimhood.” It is even harder when the topic is a “favorite of Russian agents of disinformation as well as ‘alt-right’ trolls.” She rejects both fashionable denial and xenophobic fearmongering, and instead strives to understand the actual scale of the problem and its causes.

The rates of “either rape or sexual assault went up between 2014 and 2017 in every European country for which data are available” and “in some countries — notably Denmark and England — they went up a lot, roughly doubling in the case of Denmark.” In that country, Hirsi Ali reports, “‘non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions — even though they make up less than 13 percent of the population.” In Germany, asylum seekers constituted only 1 or 2 percent of the population from 2015, but they were “disproportionately responsible for sex crimes included in the statistics, making up nearly 12 percent of suspects by 2018,” and responsible for 16.3 percent of grievous sex crimes, such as rape.

Many asylum seekers from Muslim-majority countries brought with them their society’s endemic contempt for women. She cites a UN survey of more than four thousand men in Morocco, Egypt, Palestinian areas, and Lebanon which found that between one-third and two-thirds of men admitted to sexually harassing women in public. Women are reduced to commodities, useful only for their capacity to bear children, and therefore subjected to a “modesty doctrine.” Hirsi Ali regards such attitudes as tied to and reinforced by Islamic ideas. “More than any other major religion,” she writes, “Islam formalizes the subordination of women.”

Hirsi Ali describes a pattern of government officials looking the other way and staying silent, lest they appear to be xenophobic. Take the incident in Cologne. What was the official response? Police officers on the scene reportedly ignored women who came to them with complaints or else turned them away. A police statement on New Year’s Day claimed the evening had been “largely peaceful.” It was only after a groundswell of posts on social media and coverage in news outlets, that the authorities released information about the attacks and the perpetrators. Moreover, it turned out that smaller-scale gang assaults had occurred that night in Hamburg, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, and Bielefeld.

The pattern extends beyond Germany. That same year in Sweden, at the “We Are Sthlm” summer festival, a group of some fifty young asylum seekers preyed on women at the event. Even though “thirty-eight sex offenses had been reported on girls as young as 14,” Hirsi Ali writes, Swedish police stated that the event had had “relatively few crimes.” Months later, “fearing a backlash like the one that had followed events in Cologne, Swedish police came clean. Revealingly, Södermalm police chief Peter Ågren said that one reason for the cover-up was to avoid provoking racism or ‘play into the hands of the Swedish Democrats,’ Sweden’s rightwing populist party.” Hirsi Ali believes that European leaders have come to fear that if they speak about the rise in sexual violence against women, they would be seen as “xenophobic” or as appearing to give “ground to actual xenophobes.” Instead, they would rather “cover up the problem and leave victims at risk.”

European statistics on sex crimes are a maze, if not a minefield, of inconsistent and changing definitions. Denmark is unusual for making it relatively easy to distinguish immigrant offenders. Since 2015, the country’s share of immigrants from “non-Western countries,” excluding their Danish-born descendants, has risen from around 5% to 6%. Yet from 2015 to 2019 they have accounted for around 11% of convictions for sex offenses and 34% of convictions for rape.

In Germany a new category of “rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases including resulting in death” was introduced in June 2016, making it hard to measure the effect of the migrant influx. Even so, in 2017 and 2018, more than a third of the suspects in the new category were non-Germans. For all sexual-abuse cases, the share of non-German suspects rose from 15% in 2014 to 23% in 2016, 2017 and 2018, and 21% in 2019.

“Non-German” is a broad category. In Germany’s crime statistics, the term zuwanderer, or “newcomers,” was used until 2016 to identify suspects who were asylum applicants, failed asylum seekers and illegal residents. This definition was expanded in 2017 to include successful asylum seekers. From 2017 to 2019, zuwanderer accounted for between 10% and 12% of sex-crime suspects, and around 16% of suspects for rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases. It is unlikely that zuwanderer accounted for much more than 2% of the German population.

In Austria, “crimes or offenses against sexual integrity and self-determination” increased by 53% between 2015 and 2018. Between a quarter and a third of suspects were foreign, but in 2018 only 19.4% of the population was foreign-born. Between 4% and 11% of the suspects were asylum seekers; the share of the population born in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria—among the largest sources of asylum seekers—was only 1.2%.

In the absence of official statistics, the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reviewed the gang-rape cases heard in Swedish courts between July 2012 and December 2017. Of the 112 men convicted, it found that three-quarters were foreign-born (almost all of those from outside Europe), and 30% were asylum seekers.

Statistics like this can be difficult to collate, but Ali is considered a reliable writer, so I suspect that she's been honest with her attempts to put these numbers together.

It seems like it should not be a surprise that if you sudden;y have a bunch of people from a very different cultural background, it can cause problems where there are different norms or expectations. If I were to take a guess, I would not be at all surprised to find that there were some class issues at play as well. It's one thing to have a newcomer who has been well educated and has some significant exposure to the norms of western culture, and also has likely interacted more with westerners. But in some countries among the uneducated there can be some really horrible sexual violence.

It is not however considered PC to talk about this by many progressives. And so they can't really offer any solutions.

Piggywaspushed · 22/11/2023 06:50

Who considers her a reliable writer ?

Redundantrobin · 22/11/2023 07:36

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 23:20

Here are some excerpts as requested.

If you leave meat uncovered on the street and a cat eats it, whose fault is it? The problem is not the cat, but the uncovered meat. Growing up, Ayaan Hirsi Ali heard this kind of attitude from her grandmother in Somalia. It’s a loathsome attitude widespread in societies defined by Islamic culture: if only the victim of a sexual assault or rape had stayed at home, or worn her hijab, then no problem would have occurred.

Why have European feminists been conspicuously silent about the rise in sexual violence against women? Part of the answer is that within the feminist movement “the concept of women’s rights yielded to the new ideals of multiculturalism and intersectionality.” Europeans broadly have been impacted by the notion of “multiculturalism,” which I think of as teaching people that it is wrong to judge certain ideas — notably, individual freedom — as superior to the ideas of other cultures, such as the Islamic subordination of women.

“Talking about violence by Muslim men against European women is unfashionable in an age of identity politics, when we are supposed to operate within a partly historical matrix of victimhood.” It is even harder when the topic is a “favorite of Russian agents of disinformation as well as ‘alt-right’ trolls.” She rejects both fashionable denial and xenophobic fearmongering, and instead strives to understand the actual scale of the problem and its causes.

The rates of “either rape or sexual assault went up between 2014 and 2017 in every European country for which data are available” and “in some countries — notably Denmark and England — they went up a lot, roughly doubling in the case of Denmark.” In that country, Hirsi Ali reports, “‘non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions — even though they make up less than 13 percent of the population.” In Germany, asylum seekers constituted only 1 or 2 percent of the population from 2015, but they were “disproportionately responsible for sex crimes included in the statistics, making up nearly 12 percent of suspects by 2018,” and responsible for 16.3 percent of grievous sex crimes, such as rape.

Many asylum seekers from Muslim-majority countries brought with them their society’s endemic contempt for women. She cites a UN survey of more than four thousand men in Morocco, Egypt, Palestinian areas, and Lebanon which found that between one-third and two-thirds of men admitted to sexually harassing women in public. Women are reduced to commodities, useful only for their capacity to bear children, and therefore subjected to a “modesty doctrine.” Hirsi Ali regards such attitudes as tied to and reinforced by Islamic ideas. “More than any other major religion,” she writes, “Islam formalizes the subordination of women.”

Hirsi Ali describes a pattern of government officials looking the other way and staying silent, lest they appear to be xenophobic. Take the incident in Cologne. What was the official response? Police officers on the scene reportedly ignored women who came to them with complaints or else turned them away. A police statement on New Year’s Day claimed the evening had been “largely peaceful.” It was only after a groundswell of posts on social media and coverage in news outlets, that the authorities released information about the attacks and the perpetrators. Moreover, it turned out that smaller-scale gang assaults had occurred that night in Hamburg, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, and Bielefeld.

The pattern extends beyond Germany. That same year in Sweden, at the “We Are Sthlm” summer festival, a group of some fifty young asylum seekers preyed on women at the event. Even though “thirty-eight sex offenses had been reported on girls as young as 14,” Hirsi Ali writes, Swedish police stated that the event had had “relatively few crimes.” Months later, “fearing a backlash like the one that had followed events in Cologne, Swedish police came clean. Revealingly, Södermalm police chief Peter Ågren said that one reason for the cover-up was to avoid provoking racism or ‘play into the hands of the Swedish Democrats,’ Sweden’s rightwing populist party.” Hirsi Ali believes that European leaders have come to fear that if they speak about the rise in sexual violence against women, they would be seen as “xenophobic” or as appearing to give “ground to actual xenophobes.” Instead, they would rather “cover up the problem and leave victims at risk.”

European statistics on sex crimes are a maze, if not a minefield, of inconsistent and changing definitions. Denmark is unusual for making it relatively easy to distinguish immigrant offenders. Since 2015, the country’s share of immigrants from “non-Western countries,” excluding their Danish-born descendants, has risen from around 5% to 6%. Yet from 2015 to 2019 they have accounted for around 11% of convictions for sex offenses and 34% of convictions for rape.

In Germany a new category of “rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases including resulting in death” was introduced in June 2016, making it hard to measure the effect of the migrant influx. Even so, in 2017 and 2018, more than a third of the suspects in the new category were non-Germans. For all sexual-abuse cases, the share of non-German suspects rose from 15% in 2014 to 23% in 2016, 2017 and 2018, and 21% in 2019.

“Non-German” is a broad category. In Germany’s crime statistics, the term zuwanderer, or “newcomers,” was used until 2016 to identify suspects who were asylum applicants, failed asylum seekers and illegal residents. This definition was expanded in 2017 to include successful asylum seekers. From 2017 to 2019, zuwanderer accounted for between 10% and 12% of sex-crime suspects, and around 16% of suspects for rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases. It is unlikely that zuwanderer accounted for much more than 2% of the German population.

In Austria, “crimes or offenses against sexual integrity and self-determination” increased by 53% between 2015 and 2018. Between a quarter and a third of suspects were foreign, but in 2018 only 19.4% of the population was foreign-born. Between 4% and 11% of the suspects were asylum seekers; the share of the population born in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria—among the largest sources of asylum seekers—was only 1.2%.

In the absence of official statistics, the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reviewed the gang-rape cases heard in Swedish courts between July 2012 and December 2017. Of the 112 men convicted, it found that three-quarters were foreign-born (almost all of those from outside Europe), and 30% were asylum seekers.

It isn’t as clear cut as this. The proportion of black men on death row far exceeds the proportion of black men in the population. Does it mean that black men are more likely to kill? No. It reflects the systemic racism in a system that more often seeks the harshest penalty against them.

Interpreting statistics in this way is narrow minded and bigoted.

that isn’t to say there aren’t issues with misogyny in Islam as it’s interpreted by some cultures.

AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 07:36

CaramacFiend · 21/11/2023 23:20

Here are some excerpts as requested.

If you leave meat uncovered on the street and a cat eats it, whose fault is it? The problem is not the cat, but the uncovered meat. Growing up, Ayaan Hirsi Ali heard this kind of attitude from her grandmother in Somalia. It’s a loathsome attitude widespread in societies defined by Islamic culture: if only the victim of a sexual assault or rape had stayed at home, or worn her hijab, then no problem would have occurred.

Why have European feminists been conspicuously silent about the rise in sexual violence against women? Part of the answer is that within the feminist movement “the concept of women’s rights yielded to the new ideals of multiculturalism and intersectionality.” Europeans broadly have been impacted by the notion of “multiculturalism,” which I think of as teaching people that it is wrong to judge certain ideas — notably, individual freedom — as superior to the ideas of other cultures, such as the Islamic subordination of women.

“Talking about violence by Muslim men against European women is unfashionable in an age of identity politics, when we are supposed to operate within a partly historical matrix of victimhood.” It is even harder when the topic is a “favorite of Russian agents of disinformation as well as ‘alt-right’ trolls.” She rejects both fashionable denial and xenophobic fearmongering, and instead strives to understand the actual scale of the problem and its causes.

The rates of “either rape or sexual assault went up between 2014 and 2017 in every European country for which data are available” and “in some countries — notably Denmark and England — they went up a lot, roughly doubling in the case of Denmark.” In that country, Hirsi Ali reports, “‘non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions — even though they make up less than 13 percent of the population.” In Germany, asylum seekers constituted only 1 or 2 percent of the population from 2015, but they were “disproportionately responsible for sex crimes included in the statistics, making up nearly 12 percent of suspects by 2018,” and responsible for 16.3 percent of grievous sex crimes, such as rape.

Many asylum seekers from Muslim-majority countries brought with them their society’s endemic contempt for women. She cites a UN survey of more than four thousand men in Morocco, Egypt, Palestinian areas, and Lebanon which found that between one-third and two-thirds of men admitted to sexually harassing women in public. Women are reduced to commodities, useful only for their capacity to bear children, and therefore subjected to a “modesty doctrine.” Hirsi Ali regards such attitudes as tied to and reinforced by Islamic ideas. “More than any other major religion,” she writes, “Islam formalizes the subordination of women.”

Hirsi Ali describes a pattern of government officials looking the other way and staying silent, lest they appear to be xenophobic. Take the incident in Cologne. What was the official response? Police officers on the scene reportedly ignored women who came to them with complaints or else turned them away. A police statement on New Year’s Day claimed the evening had been “largely peaceful.” It was only after a groundswell of posts on social media and coverage in news outlets, that the authorities released information about the attacks and the perpetrators. Moreover, it turned out that smaller-scale gang assaults had occurred that night in Hamburg, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, and Bielefeld.

The pattern extends beyond Germany. That same year in Sweden, at the “We Are Sthlm” summer festival, a group of some fifty young asylum seekers preyed on women at the event. Even though “thirty-eight sex offenses had been reported on girls as young as 14,” Hirsi Ali writes, Swedish police stated that the event had had “relatively few crimes.” Months later, “fearing a backlash like the one that had followed events in Cologne, Swedish police came clean. Revealingly, Södermalm police chief Peter Ågren said that one reason for the cover-up was to avoid provoking racism or ‘play into the hands of the Swedish Democrats,’ Sweden’s rightwing populist party.” Hirsi Ali believes that European leaders have come to fear that if they speak about the rise in sexual violence against women, they would be seen as “xenophobic” or as appearing to give “ground to actual xenophobes.” Instead, they would rather “cover up the problem and leave victims at risk.”

European statistics on sex crimes are a maze, if not a minefield, of inconsistent and changing definitions. Denmark is unusual for making it relatively easy to distinguish immigrant offenders. Since 2015, the country’s share of immigrants from “non-Western countries,” excluding their Danish-born descendants, has risen from around 5% to 6%. Yet from 2015 to 2019 they have accounted for around 11% of convictions for sex offenses and 34% of convictions for rape.

In Germany a new category of “rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases including resulting in death” was introduced in June 2016, making it hard to measure the effect of the migrant influx. Even so, in 2017 and 2018, more than a third of the suspects in the new category were non-Germans. For all sexual-abuse cases, the share of non-German suspects rose from 15% in 2014 to 23% in 2016, 2017 and 2018, and 21% in 2019.

“Non-German” is a broad category. In Germany’s crime statistics, the term zuwanderer, or “newcomers,” was used until 2016 to identify suspects who were asylum applicants, failed asylum seekers and illegal residents. This definition was expanded in 2017 to include successful asylum seekers. From 2017 to 2019, zuwanderer accounted for between 10% and 12% of sex-crime suspects, and around 16% of suspects for rape, sexual coercion and sexual assault in especially serious cases. It is unlikely that zuwanderer accounted for much more than 2% of the German population.

In Austria, “crimes or offenses against sexual integrity and self-determination” increased by 53% between 2015 and 2018. Between a quarter and a third of suspects were foreign, but in 2018 only 19.4% of the population was foreign-born. Between 4% and 11% of the suspects were asylum seekers; the share of the population born in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria—among the largest sources of asylum seekers—was only 1.2%.

In the absence of official statistics, the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reviewed the gang-rape cases heard in Swedish courts between July 2012 and December 2017. Of the 112 men convicted, it found that three-quarters were foreign-born (almost all of those from outside Europe), and 30% were asylum seekers.

None of that is relevant to your statement Asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics.

This:
"non-Western’ immigrants and their descendants” account for “around two-fifths of rape convictions and between a quarter and a third of groping convictions" is basically short hand for anyone who isn't white and says nothing useful about asylum seekers.

Using bare bones numbers to extrapolate causes of crimes is a bad idea. Crime is very related to social class, sentences and prosecution are often influenced by stereotypes. It's impossible to say from those statistics whether "non western immigrants and their descendants" are more likely to commit sex assault because of cultural misogynistic attitudes, or more likely to be arrested and convicted because of racist stereotypes about immigrants.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/11/2023 07:39

And again, how is the Rwanda plan going to help with this? Why do you find it more acceptable to outsource sexual assault to Africa?

OP posts:
Zonder · 22/11/2023 07:46

Piggywaspushed · 22/11/2023 06:50

Who considers her a reliable writer ?

Just one poster on here I think. Reading up about her doesn't make me want to trust anything she writes.

youngones1 · 22/11/2023 08:40

It's amazing that it cost the British taxpayer £1m to protect this Somalian rapist's human rights. If a rapist can run up a bill like this before he is deported imagine what the bill would be for someone who hasn't broken the law. It really does show how hard it is to deport someone.

Piggywaspushed · 22/11/2023 08:55

Redundantrobin · 22/11/2023 07:36

It isn’t as clear cut as this. The proportion of black men on death row far exceeds the proportion of black men in the population. Does it mean that black men are more likely to kill? No. It reflects the systemic racism in a system that more often seeks the harshest penalty against them.

Interpreting statistics in this way is narrow minded and bigoted.

that isn’t to say there aren’t issues with misogyny in Islam as it’s interpreted by some cultures.

And Ali, a highly educated woman, knows all that. It's entirely deliberate.