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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rwanda plan

949 replies

AdamRyan · 16/11/2023 23:05

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions.

The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask:

IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this

IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

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Thread gallery
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AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:43

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 21:51

Hirsi Ali says it better than I possibly could (and this is no doubt why so many western feminists seem to get mightily offended by her). When I read this quote it summed up what I'd been thinking for a while but was struggling to articulate.

I think Western feminists excuse the misogyny inherent in Islam, and practiced by many Muslims, because thinking about it puts them in a situation of cognitive dissonance—they are forced to criticize the behavior of a group they consider oppressed (Muslims) if they want to promote the rights of another group they consider oppressed (women).

It’s a clash between two classic progressive values, and to a large extent Western feminists have chosen Islam over women. Why they’ve made that choice baffles me.

Sadly, even if you consider all Muslims oppressed—and I don’t—being oppressed is no guarantee of virtue. Western women should stop coddling all religions that have misogynistic attributes, and those are not limited to Islam.

What a load of arse. I think misogyny is inherent in Abrahamic religions (and probably all religions). And feminists, especially the sort I am, focus on the structural oppression of women by the patriarchy I.e. all the religious/cultural practices the world over. We aren't "excusing misogyny" because of some backward view about who is most oppressed.

If we dealt effectively with sexual violence against women, and were zero tolerance that would affect men from all backgrounds living in the UK. The fact that at the moment only 1.4% of rapes result in a conviction shows that as a culture in the UK we are very forgiving of sexual assaults. Immigrants are neither here nor there in my mind. Unless you think being raped by a man who wasn't born here is somehow more serious than being raped by a brit Confused

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CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:44

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:36

Yes you have made this point. What would you do about it?

That's not the discussion, much as you seem keen to derail.

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:49

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:14

I don't know. But I'm prepared to have an honest discussion on the impact and repercussions of the culture clash. Many people (some claiming to be feminists) will happily throw women under the bus for fear of being seen as a bigot. Much like with the trans/self ID situation.

It's not an "honest discussion" to start from a position that there is an epidemic of sexual violence caused by immigrants, when there is absolutely no evidence of that in the UK and only very disputed evidence in Europe.

It's not an "honest discussion" to bring up Rotherham as an example when it's been shown there is no evidence that Pakistani males are any more of a risk than any other men.

It's basic racism/xenophobia and needs to be called out.

If you want an "honest discussion" related to the topic of the thread, and you honestly think immigrants are a risk, why do you think its acceptable to put African women in harms way?

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CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:52

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:43

What a load of arse. I think misogyny is inherent in Abrahamic religions (and probably all religions). And feminists, especially the sort I am, focus on the structural oppression of women by the patriarchy I.e. all the religious/cultural practices the world over. We aren't "excusing misogyny" because of some backward view about who is most oppressed.

If we dealt effectively with sexual violence against women, and were zero tolerance that would affect men from all backgrounds living in the UK. The fact that at the moment only 1.4% of rapes result in a conviction shows that as a culture in the UK we are very forgiving of sexual assaults. Immigrants are neither here nor there in my mind. Unless you think being raped by a man who wasn't born here is somehow more serious than being raped by a brit Confused

And yet the 1200 sexual assaults in one night speak for themselves. It's actually a middle eastern practice called 'Taharrush gamea' which roughly translates to 'the rape game'. Also known as 'the circle of hell'.

If you read what happened to the reporter Lara Logan in Egypt (gang raped for almost half an hour) you'll see clear similarities with what happened on NYE in Germany, and also in a fair few other places.

For all the talk of incels, western men aren't ganging up in their hundreds to sexually assault women in public.

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:54

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:34

Well, the facts are:

  • Something like 75% of asylum seekers are men under 35yo (I forget the exact figure).
  • Asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics.
  • The countries that have taken the most asylum seekers have seen the largest proportionate rises in sexual assault.
  • Most of said men are from cultures that are irrefutably more patriarchal/misogynistic.

Where are you getting your data from? Because the ONS don't record it. I feel like you are just making things up now to seem like you are know what you are talking about

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/assaultsbrokendownbyethnicity

Assaults broken down by ethnicity - Office for National Statistics

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/assaultsbrokendownbyethnicity

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bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:57

@CaramacFiend - no, I simply asked for your point of view, which I have. I understand that you just have concerns about western feminism, which doesn't to my mind have much to do with asylum policy, since the Conservative Party are in charge of that.

All you've effectively said is that certain males is certain religions in your view present a great danger. I'm not that convinced you aren't the derailer. Logically you want to exclude them, but you seem to want to not say that yourself and go on about western feminism as being the source of our apparent ills with asylum.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:58

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:49

It's not an "honest discussion" to start from a position that there is an epidemic of sexual violence caused by immigrants, when there is absolutely no evidence of that in the UK and only very disputed evidence in Europe.

It's not an "honest discussion" to bring up Rotherham as an example when it's been shown there is no evidence that Pakistani males are any more of a risk than any other men.

It's basic racism/xenophobia and needs to be called out.

If you want an "honest discussion" related to the topic of the thread, and you honestly think immigrants are a risk, why do you think its acceptable to put African women in harms way?

Ok, forget Rotherham then. I agree it's not quite the same and maybe a bit of a sidetrack. My point was more about the police downplaying sexual assault.

There is clear evidence linking asylum seekers and sexual assault however whether you like it or not. Government figures.

Most likely these posts will be reported and subsequently deleted as with the couple of prior threads on the topic. Whether that's in the public interest depends on whether you care more about women's safety or displaying your woke credentials/prioritising men.

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:59

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:52

And yet the 1200 sexual assaults in one night speak for themselves. It's actually a middle eastern practice called 'Taharrush gamea' which roughly translates to 'the rape game'. Also known as 'the circle of hell'.

If you read what happened to the reporter Lara Logan in Egypt (gang raped for almost half an hour) you'll see clear similarities with what happened on NYE in Germany, and also in a fair few other places.

For all the talk of incels, western men aren't ganging up in their hundreds to sexually assault women in public.

Really? Or is it something that the far right have used to scare monger us into fearing the other?

Incels have committed a number of terrorist attacks with multiple deaths so its pretty gross to dismiss it

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sexism-isnt-an-arab-cultural-practice_b_9022056

No, Sexism Isn't an Arab ‘Cultural Practice'

The fact that so many commentators are focusing on a supposedly cultural dimension to the Cologne violence highlights the growing fear that the moral outrage is guided more by racism against refugees than concern for women.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sexism-isnt-an-arab-cultural-practice_b_9022056

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CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:07

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:57

@CaramacFiend - no, I simply asked for your point of view, which I have. I understand that you just have concerns about western feminism, which doesn't to my mind have much to do with asylum policy, since the Conservative Party are in charge of that.

All you've effectively said is that certain males is certain religions in your view present a great danger. I'm not that convinced you aren't the derailer. Logically you want to exclude them, but you seem to want to not say that yourself and go on about western feminism as being the source of our apparent ills with asylum.

You seem to adding 2+2 and making 5.

I'm not saying western feminism is the cause. I'm saying it sometimes obfuscates the issue through a lack of nuance - i.e. lumping all men together.

I don't want to ban anybody. I do however believe that different issues require different approaches and that not all misogyny is the same.

White professional 'old boys clubs' for instance are another patriarchal institution but very different in manifestation and need tackled with a different approach.

Saying 'it's just men innit' is like a doctor saying 'it's just disease innit' when in reality different diseases require different treatment.

bombastix · 20/11/2023 23:11

@CaramacFiend - but no one brought in cultural aspects until you did, I think?

If you don't want asylum seekers, and particularly those from Muslim countries, it would be better to own that view.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:14

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:59

Really? Or is it something that the far right have used to scare monger us into fearing the other?

Incels have committed a number of terrorist attacks with multiple deaths so its pretty gross to dismiss it

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sexism-isnt-an-arab-cultural-practice_b_9022056

So, they're all just victims of the nasty right wing xenophobes? The 1200 sexual assaults didn't happen.

Or maybe they did and the right wingers thought all their christmases had come at once - i.e. they're not mutually exclusive. Which is kind of what Hirsi Ali said in the excerpt I posted earlier.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:17

bombastix · 20/11/2023 23:11

@CaramacFiend - but no one brought in cultural aspects until you did, I think?

If you don't want asylum seekers, and particularly those from Muslim countries, it would be better to own that view.

Well, I can safely say I've never seen such a level of sexual assault apologism until now. And certainly not from feminists. I can actually understand now how things like women being expected to share showers with men come to be a reality.

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 23:21

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:14

So, they're all just victims of the nasty right wing xenophobes? The 1200 sexual assaults didn't happen.

Or maybe they did and the right wingers thought all their christmases had come at once - i.e. they're not mutually exclusive. Which is kind of what Hirsi Ali said in the excerpt I posted earlier.

Clearly they happened. What isn't clear is 1) how organised they were 2) how different it was to the "ordinary" level of assault at big celebrations and 3) that it is an example of Tarrarhush Gamea, which may not even be a thing.

It was quite a while ago (2017) now and has not been repeated so I'm inclined to think its not a very reliable indicator that Muslim immigrants are a significant cause of sexual violence.

Still waiting for your stats about sexual assaults by immigrants

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CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:26

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 23:21

Clearly they happened. What isn't clear is 1) how organised they were 2) how different it was to the "ordinary" level of assault at big celebrations and 3) that it is an example of Tarrarhush Gamea, which may not even be a thing.

It was quite a while ago (2017) now and has not been repeated so I'm inclined to think its not a very reliable indicator that Muslim immigrants are a significant cause of sexual violence.

Still waiting for your stats about sexual assaults by immigrants

I'm not going to read the book for you.

I may post some of the statistics tomorrow when I haven't got to be up in five hours. But honestly I feel it would probably be a waste of my time.

DuncinToffee · 20/11/2023 23:28

I may post some of the statistics tomorrow when I haven't got to be up in five hours. But honestly I feel it would probably be a waste of my time.

How very predictable

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 23:29

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:39

So, the average UK woman wouldn't have a hard time in Egypt? Just like living in Cheltenham, then?

I missed this earlier, but actually I've been to Egypt and found the people absolutely lovely and I felt very safe there (unlike Morocco which was gross, and unlike many UK nghtclubs!). My experience in Egypt is one reason why I question a lot of anti-Islam attitudes and am I'm more open minded about Islam than you appear to be.

I've also spent time in a Muslim country in East Africa and found the men there similarly respectful.

Maybe you should speak with/spend some time with some Muslims rather than getting your "facts" from whatever mangled sources you are reading.

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boudiccathecat · 20/11/2023 23:32

Germany and Italy are watching the UK and will be bringing in a similar system if the UK can make it work

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 23:33

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 23:26

I'm not going to read the book for you.

I may post some of the statistics tomorrow when I haven't got to be up in five hours. But honestly I feel it would probably be a waste of my time.

Hahaha. Have you found the statistics don't say quite what you thought?

To be honest I think that it's very indicative of the patriarchy that it's impossible to find out what the shared characteristics of rapists are (beyond "has penis"). Male violence is very obfuscated. That's the problem, not the immigrants.

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AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 00:16

Well having read up on Hirsi Ali I am not sure how reliable a narrator she is. Born to a father who was sent to prison in Somalia, her grandmother subjected her to FGM while he was there even though he was opposed. But could only find a male doctor to do it and they don't do as extreme a version.
Escaped Somalia in 1977 when she was 8, eventually settled in middle class Kenya when she was 11. She was radicalised to Brotherhood of Islam at school. Sought asylum in the Netherlands in 1992 because her father was forcing her to marry, but lied and said she was from Somalia. Granted Dutch citizenship. Renounced Islam in 2002 after 9/11, became atheist. Stood for Parliament in 2003. Had to go into hiding in 2004 after making a film with Theo van Gogh, he was murdered by an Islamist. Revealed her own location on TV and moved back to a normal house.

Quit as an MP in 2007 when Dutch authorities looked into her immigration status and threatened to remove her citizenship. Claimed she was forced to quit under duress. Moved to the US. Was offered a honorary degree, rescinded because of her "islamophobia".
Given a green card and US citizenship.
Converted to Christianity in 2023.

She's had a very eventful life with multiple traumatic events beyond most of our comprehension so I'm not sure her take on Islam is fully objective.

There's also quite a lot of speculation on the Internet that she's not entirely truthful and so to be honest I don't think she's someone I'm going to be relying on for data.

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Userxyd · 21/11/2023 05:24

YANBU

I'm not sure that Rwanda is that terrible of a country- they operate luxury safaris there so it's hardly Afghanistan. But it's a huge con - all this grief for 200 agreed people with lax security so they'd just get out and go straight back to the UK.
Why not pour this energy into supporting these emigration countries to become more viable to stay in and help stabilise the world?

Piggywaspushed · 21/11/2023 06:45

AdamRyan · 21/11/2023 00:16

Well having read up on Hirsi Ali I am not sure how reliable a narrator she is. Born to a father who was sent to prison in Somalia, her grandmother subjected her to FGM while he was there even though he was opposed. But could only find a male doctor to do it and they don't do as extreme a version.
Escaped Somalia in 1977 when she was 8, eventually settled in middle class Kenya when she was 11. She was radicalised to Brotherhood of Islam at school. Sought asylum in the Netherlands in 1992 because her father was forcing her to marry, but lied and said she was from Somalia. Granted Dutch citizenship. Renounced Islam in 2002 after 9/11, became atheist. Stood for Parliament in 2003. Had to go into hiding in 2004 after making a film with Theo van Gogh, he was murdered by an Islamist. Revealed her own location on TV and moved back to a normal house.

Quit as an MP in 2007 when Dutch authorities looked into her immigration status and threatened to remove her citizenship. Claimed she was forced to quit under duress. Moved to the US. Was offered a honorary degree, rescinded because of her "islamophobia".
Given a green card and US citizenship.
Converted to Christianity in 2023.

She's had a very eventful life with multiple traumatic events beyond most of our comprehension so I'm not sure her take on Islam is fully objective.

There's also quite a lot of speculation on the Internet that she's not entirely truthful and so to be honest I don't think she's someone I'm going to be relying on for data.

She is also married to one Niall Ferguson and Douglas Murray is a fan...

Zonder · 21/11/2023 07:09

boudiccathecat · 20/11/2023 23:32

Germany and Italy are watching the UK and will be bringing in a similar system if the UK can make it work

People said the same about Brexit! All those countries ready to follow suit once they saw what a success it was.
UK isn't the world leader some people say it is. At least not any more.

Zonder · 21/11/2023 07:14

Piggywaspushed · 21/11/2023 06:45

She is also married to one Niall Ferguson and Douglas Murray is a fan...

Edited

Ah lovely Niall, who says Britain should ha e stayed out of WW1 and let Germany win. That's her husband eh?

Zonder · 21/11/2023 07:32

I'm not sure that Rwanda is that terrible of a country- they operate luxury safaris there so it's hardly Afghanistan

So many countries have continued to be holiday resorts of the wealthy despite what's going on at ground level. Look at South Africa in the height of its troubles. People still visited and had a great time. All stops are pulled out for wealthy tourists. Great money spinner. And not proof of a safe country.