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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rwanda plan

949 replies

AdamRyan · 16/11/2023 23:05

Was just reading Suella Bravermans thoughts on how to make the Rwanda plan work, which involve sending staff there to review claims and pulling out of all human rights and refugee conventions.

The plan has cost £140m to Rwanda so far, plus £££££ in legal fees and so far we've sent no-one and found out its illegal. I'm very baffled as to why the government are pursuing it, I keep hearing that "most people" support it. So I thought I'd ask:

IABU: It's a priority as it will deter immigration and the government should spend whatever money and time it takes to deliver this

IANBU: The government should focus time/money on other priorities instead.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
DuncinToffee · 20/11/2023 21:48

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 21:41

I think that's just the assumption you've jumped to. I'm talking about the over representation of asylum seekers/immigrants in sexual assault statistics and how this seems to echo the behaviour we see in the patriarchal cultures these men originate from.

Obviously the asylum seekers from other cultures aren't what is being discussed here. This is about young men from middle eastern countries, not women and children from Ukraine.

Yes that is very obvious.

Are you suggesting the UK should reject refugees based on their religion and sex?

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 21:51

Hirsi Ali says it better than I possibly could (and this is no doubt why so many western feminists seem to get mightily offended by her). When I read this quote it summed up what I'd been thinking for a while but was struggling to articulate.

I think Western feminists excuse the misogyny inherent in Islam, and practiced by many Muslims, because thinking about it puts them in a situation of cognitive dissonance—they are forced to criticize the behavior of a group they consider oppressed (Muslims) if they want to promote the rights of another group they consider oppressed (women).

It’s a clash between two classic progressive values, and to a large extent Western feminists have chosen Islam over women. Why they’ve made that choice baffles me.

Sadly, even if you consider all Muslims oppressed—and I don’t—being oppressed is no guarantee of virtue. Western women should stop coddling all religions that have misogynistic attributes, and those are not limited to Islam.

bombastix · 20/11/2023 21:53

But what do you think about the point regarding rejection of asylum based on religion, @CaramacFiend?

jgw1 · 20/11/2023 21:56

Stomacharmeleon · 20/11/2023 21:43

@jgw1 I meant more he was born in the uk thus can't be considered to be an economic migrant.
Or am I missing something?

Oh right. I had no idea that those born in Britain couldn't be economic migrants. Are there any other countries that applies to or is Britain special?

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:03

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 19:50

When Met officers commit 1200 sexual assaults in one night then let's talk.

Read 'Prey' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali for all the stats. She knows her stuff.

TBF we haven't got 1m Met Police officers have we?

And as Fullfact pointed out, the vast majority of Asylum seekers do not commit sexual offences.

All you seem to be doing is stereotyping black migrants.

Perhaps if the UK and other western countries didn't start/support wars in Libya, Iraq, Yemen and cut foreign aid, more people would stay in their own countries.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:04

DuncinToffee · 20/11/2023 21:48

Yes that is very obvious.

Are you suggesting the UK should reject refugees based on their religion and sex?

That would be a far too extreme reaction IMO.

A start would be to not try and sweep it under the carpet as has largely been attempted in Europe. For instance, the German police stating that NYE had been 'largely uneventful' despite many reports of sexual harassment - they only backtracked when social media coverage made it impossible to deny the 1200 sexual assaults.

And over here we had the police's self confessed reluctance to address the Rotherham scandal - not asylum seekers but still patriarchal misogynistic culture.

There are loads of similar cases. I think it was in Sweden that around 50 sexual assaults occurred at a single music event, mostly perpetrated by a large group of asylum seekers, with most of the victims being teenage girls under the age of 15yo. And again, guess what the police response was. Yup, they claimed the event had gone smoothly until people started asking about all the reports of sexual assault.

To dismiss concerns about the impact of misogynistic patriarchal cultures by way of some misplaced notion of wokeness really isn't in the interest of women's rights and I doubt many would if their own daughter was one of the victims.

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:06

But if that is too extreme, what is the right balance?

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:08

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 21:41

I think that's just the assumption you've jumped to. I'm talking about the over representation of asylum seekers/immigrants in sexual assault statistics and how this seems to echo the behaviour we see in the patriarchal cultures these men originate from.

Obviously the asylum seekers from other cultures aren't what is being discussed here. This is about young men from middle eastern countries, not women and children from Ukraine.

What about Russian men committing brutal sexual assaults on Ukrainian women, boys and men?

Are they from ME countries and Muslim?

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:09

And as Fullfact pointed out, the vast majority of Asylum seekers do not commit sexual offences.

Neither do most men murder their spouses. Doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Perhaps if the UK and other western countries didn't start/support wars in Libya, Iraq, Yemen and cut foreign aid, more people would stay in their own countries.

And this is for you a reason to not address the issues caused by the people whose relocation we've contributed to? I'd say it's more reason to take some ownership.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:11

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:08

What about Russian men committing brutal sexual assaults on Ukrainian women, boys and men?

Are they from ME countries and Muslim?

How many male immigrants are coming to the UK from Russia?

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:11

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:09

And as Fullfact pointed out, the vast majority of Asylum seekers do not commit sexual offences.

Neither do most men murder their spouses. Doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Perhaps if the UK and other western countries didn't start/support wars in Libya, Iraq, Yemen and cut foreign aid, more people would stay in their own countries.

And this is for you a reason to not address the issues caused by the people whose relocation we've contributed to? I'd say it's more reason to take some ownership.

So what do you suggest?

You don't want to discriminate on grounds of religion or sex, so what then?

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:13

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:11

How many male immigrants are coming to the UK from Russia?

Irrelevant, you ve made the claim that its proportionately Muslim men that commit sexual crimes in Europe.

DuncinToffee · 20/11/2023 22:13

@CaramacFiend

That would be a far too extreme reaction IMO.

So what is your less extreme reaction? Reject muslim men only?

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:14

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:06

But if that is too extreme, what is the right balance?

I don't know. But I'm prepared to have an honest discussion on the impact and repercussions of the culture clash. Many people (some claiming to be feminists) will happily throw women under the bus for fear of being seen as a bigot. Much like with the trans/self ID situation.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:15

To put it in perspective. What would be the likely reaction of feminists if 1200 women were assaulted by TRAs on a single night?

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:17

Alexandra2001 · 20/11/2023 22:13

Irrelevant, you ve made the claim that its proportionately Muslim men that commit sexual crimes in Europe.

Edited

Where? Can you link my quote.

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:24

The thing is @CaramacFiend that your argument about culture connected to religion is one that is already with us. You refer to Rotherham, for example.

Now, that means a different issue because the inference is, people from these countries are especially bad because they are from these places given their culture.

Your point is not very precise. If I am looking at public safety, what criteria could a government set to meet the complaint you make?

It seems to me that you are complaining of criminality. The UK does have system for dealing with crime albeit one that is very badly resourced. Our asylum system is a separate thing.

Tbh I do not care about the asylum seeker figure. But the legal migration figure in the UK is. Legal migration does not mean people don't bring their culture or they can't be criminal. But the UK isn't doing anything like what it needs to support net migration of that kind.

Stomacharmeleon · 20/11/2023 22:31

@jgw1 you were taking about rishi sunak that is whom I am referring to.
What's the problem?

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:32

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 21:15

What are your thoughts on the below excerpts from the linked study then? You see no issue with these types of cultural views? (which, contrary to what you seem to be suggesting, aren't shared by the average UK male, and certainly not by 90%).

And do you not see the similarity between branding people 'transphobes' for discussing where women's rights fit with the trans agenda and branding people 'racists' for discussing where women's rights fit with the immigration agenda?

In both of the above cases women's rights have to defer to the 'poor marginalised males', but in the latter situation, nobody really seems to care as it's not as much of a white feminist issue. In fact, one thing I've noticed is that nothing seems to irk white feminists more than the appearance of women that rate higher on the oppression scale than western women. I've witnessed it on many a thread here.

A coalition of international and UN organizations, private foundations and governments have come together to produce startling new research on the state of gender norms in the Middle East. The study, entitled Understanding Masculinities: Results from the International Men and Gender Equality Survey (IMAGES) for the Middle East and North Africa (MENA), helps to clarify how cultural norms for both men and women contribute to hostility and violence against women, specifically in the nations of Egypt, Lebanon, Morocco, and Palestine.

“When asked why they carried out such violence, the vast majority of men – up to 90 per cent in some countries – said they did it for fun, with two-thirds to three-quarters blaming women for dressing provocatively.”

^When it comes to domestic violence, more than half of male respondents believed that women deserve to be beaten on occasion, and 90 per cent asserted that women should accept such treatment in order to preserve the family.^

^Nearly half of Egyptian men have used physical violence against their wives. More than 8 in 10 ever-married men reported having been emotionally violent toward their wives at some point in their lives. Just over half of ever-married men surveyed had carried out one of these acts of violence in the previous 12 months (Table 3.4.6a).

Physical violence is also common: almost half of male respondents had ever slapped, shoved, struck, or otherwise physically abused their wives, with a fifth of ever-married men reporting physical violence against their wives in the previous year.21 More than half of men and women reported that such acts of violence were committed in front of children.^

^Furthermore, a fifth of men reported ever having used forms of economic violence against their wives.^

^One in six women reported having been forced to have sex with her husband, while almost no men reported having committed such abuse. In the Egyptian penal code, marital rape is not classified as an offense.^

Nearly two-thirds of both men and women in Palestine said provocatively dressed women deserve to be heckled, while 52 percent of men and 43 percent of women say women out in public at night are “asking to be harassed.”

In Egypt, 74 percent of men and 84 percent of women would blame a woman for being harassed if she dressed provocatively; in Morocco, those figures are 72 and 78 percent, respectively. More than half of Moroccan women said women who go out at night are asking for harassment.

In Morocco, for instance, 71 percent of men said women enjoyed sexual harassment, but only 42 percent of women agreed. Only 20 percent of Egyptian women said women enjoyed harassment, but 43 percent of men said they did.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/06/men-say-they-sexually-harass-women-because-its-fun-in-new-survey-from-promundo.html

https://philanthropywomen.org/feminist-foundations/new-study-funded-global-coalition-sheds-light-violence-women-middle-east/

Hmm. Let's compare with home grown attitudes:

  • A third (33%) of people in Britain think it isn’t usually rape if a woman is pressured into having sex but there is no physical violence
  • A third of men think if a woman has flirted on a date it generally wouldn’t count as rape, even if she hasn’t explicitly consented to sex (compared with 21% of women)
  • A third of men also believe a woman can’t change her mind after sex has started
  • Almost a quarter (24%) think that sex without consent in long-term relationships is usually not rape (1).
  • ‘Stealthing’: 40% think it is never or usually not rape to remove a condom without a partner’s consent
  • Around one in 10 people aren’t sure or think it usually or definitely isn’t rape if a man has sex with a woman who is very drunk or asleep
  • Generation divide: More than a third (35%) of over 65s we asked think that in most cases isn’t rape to have non-consenting sex with your wife or partner, compared to just 16% of 16-24s. 42% of over 65s generally think that in most cases if a woman changes her mind halfway through but the sex continues, it isn’t rape compared with just 22% of the 25-49s.

https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/major-new-survey-many-still-unclear-what-rape-is/

Nearly half (49%) of those surveyed experienced psychological abuse regularly. Practitioners responding to domestic abuse confirmed this regularity, with nearly three-quarters of practitioners saying that psychological violence was always or often reported to them when discussing domestic abuse

https://cpdonline.co.uk/knowledge-base/safeguarding/emotional-abuse/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20(49%25)%20of,them%20when%20discussing%20domestic%20abuse.

1 in 5 adults experience Domestic Abuse during their lifetime. This equates to: 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6-7 men.

https://www.ncdv.org.uk/domestic-abuse-statistics-uk/

Male violence is a problem across cultures - it's a feature of humanity, not a feature of particular religions. There is nothing compelling that I've seen that indicates high rates of immigration cause an increase in sexual assault. Correlation is not causation. #metoo was a global movement in 2017 that caused a lot of western women to report sexual abuse, so that could be a factor.

In any case, it's morally repugnant to suggest we just pay an African country to take our share of immigrants. It comes across that you think African women are less valuable than British women. Its a very entitled attitude

Major new YouGov survey for EVAW: Many people still unclear what rape is | End Violence Against Women

A new survey of attitudes to rape and sexual violence published today (6 December) reveals: A third (33%) of people in Britain think it isn’t usually rape if a woman is pressured into having sex but there is no physical violence A third of men think if...

https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/major-new-survey-many-still-unclear-what-rape-is

OP posts:
Stomacharmeleon · 20/11/2023 22:32

@jgw1 it's ok it makes sense now....

jgw1 · 20/11/2023 22:33

Stomacharmeleon · 20/11/2023 22:31

@jgw1 you were taking about rishi sunak that is whom I am referring to.
What's the problem?

Yes indeed, there was some point about not liking migrants, so I presumed you didn't like the Prime Minister since he was an economic migrant. Not sure what it had to do with Southampton General Hospital or where his parents were from, but there we go.

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:34

bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:24

The thing is @CaramacFiend that your argument about culture connected to religion is one that is already with us. You refer to Rotherham, for example.

Now, that means a different issue because the inference is, people from these countries are especially bad because they are from these places given their culture.

Your point is not very precise. If I am looking at public safety, what criteria could a government set to meet the complaint you make?

It seems to me that you are complaining of criminality. The UK does have system for dealing with crime albeit one that is very badly resourced. Our asylum system is a separate thing.

Tbh I do not care about the asylum seeker figure. But the legal migration figure in the UK is. Legal migration does not mean people don't bring their culture or they can't be criminal. But the UK isn't doing anything like what it needs to support net migration of that kind.

Well, the facts are:

  • Something like 75% of asylum seekers are men under 35yo (I forget the exact figure).
  • Asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics.
  • The countries that have taken the most asylum seekers have seen the largest proportionate rises in sexual assault.
  • Most of said men are from cultures that are irrefutably more patriarchal/misogynistic.
bombastix · 20/11/2023 22:36

Yes you have made this point. What would you do about it?

jgw1 · 20/11/2023 22:36

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:34

Well, the facts are:

  • Something like 75% of asylum seekers are men under 35yo (I forget the exact figure).
  • Asylum seekers are massively over represented in sexual crime statistics.
  • The countries that have taken the most asylum seekers have seen the largest proportionate rises in sexual assault.
  • Most of said men are from cultures that are irrefutably more patriarchal/misogynistic.

Given your very evident concern for women, I presume you are not in agreement with the UK government minister (who was not corrected by the PM, so presumably the view is if not government policy then at least acceptable to the PM) who said that women should have less education so they can have more babies?

CaramacFiend · 20/11/2023 22:39

AdamRyan · 20/11/2023 22:32

Hmm. Let's compare with home grown attitudes:

  • A third (33%) of people in Britain think it isn’t usually rape if a woman is pressured into having sex but there is no physical violence
  • A third of men think if a woman has flirted on a date it generally wouldn’t count as rape, even if she hasn’t explicitly consented to sex (compared with 21% of women)
  • A third of men also believe a woman can’t change her mind after sex has started
  • Almost a quarter (24%) think that sex without consent in long-term relationships is usually not rape (1).
  • ‘Stealthing’: 40% think it is never or usually not rape to remove a condom without a partner’s consent
  • Around one in 10 people aren’t sure or think it usually or definitely isn’t rape if a man has sex with a woman who is very drunk or asleep
  • Generation divide: More than a third (35%) of over 65s we asked think that in most cases isn’t rape to have non-consenting sex with your wife or partner, compared to just 16% of 16-24s. 42% of over 65s generally think that in most cases if a woman changes her mind halfway through but the sex continues, it isn’t rape compared with just 22% of the 25-49s.

https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/major-new-survey-many-still-unclear-what-rape-is/

Nearly half (49%) of those surveyed experienced psychological abuse regularly. Practitioners responding to domestic abuse confirmed this regularity, with nearly three-quarters of practitioners saying that psychological violence was always or often reported to them when discussing domestic abuse

https://cpdonline.co.uk/knowledge-base/safeguarding/emotional-abuse/#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20(49%25)%20of,them%20when%20discussing%20domestic%20abuse.

1 in 5 adults experience Domestic Abuse during their lifetime. This equates to: 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6-7 men.

https://www.ncdv.org.uk/domestic-abuse-statistics-uk/

Male violence is a problem across cultures - it's a feature of humanity, not a feature of particular religions. There is nothing compelling that I've seen that indicates high rates of immigration cause an increase in sexual assault. Correlation is not causation. #metoo was a global movement in 2017 that caused a lot of western women to report sexual abuse, so that could be a factor.

In any case, it's morally repugnant to suggest we just pay an African country to take our share of immigrants. It comes across that you think African women are less valuable than British women. Its a very entitled attitude

So, the average UK woman wouldn't have a hard time in Egypt? Just like living in Cheltenham, then?