It's my loss too.....

[Purpleturtle45]

Looking for options on my situation with relationship with my Mum. I am one of three siblings and have sister and brother. Sister and I had children around about the same time. I have never been very close to my Mum, she was pretty awful to sister and I in teens but became closer in 20's and then again when we had kids in 30's. She was supportive with grandkids initially however made it clear she was there to be a fun gran and spoil them and was not up for any regular childcare (absolutely her prerogative and no hard feelings about that) and would only have one grandchild at a time (from a sibling group) so she could give them her undivided attention.

Fast forward a few years and after my sister and I completed our family's my brother (always been the golden child) went on to have kids and low and behold all the boundaries she had in place went out the window and she is all of a sudden quite happy to do regular child care for him and has taken his kids together from baby/toddler stage.

Her attitude towards his family is night and day compared to ours and she is willing to go above and beyond to help him in any way she can but will continually put obstacles in the way any time I (very rarely) ask for a bit of help with something important. She has made it clear (for my sister and I) that they are our kids and we shouldn't be asking anyone else for help. All family gatherings are spent with her entertaining my brother's kids while ours are more or less ignored.

She thinks it's ridiculous when my sister and I spend any time away from our families for the odd weekend away and has no problem expressing this despite her opinion despite not being asked for it and never asking her to help out with childcare. Yet when my brother and SIL do the same age thinks it's great they are getting a break.

I feel so sad when I hear how close my friends are to their Mums and how they see them all the time. I have tried to include my Mum in our family life loads over the years (by spending time with us as a family, not just wanting help) and it's always met with reluctance and (sometimes ridiculous) excuses. I have put a lot of effort into our relationship over the years, regularly host the family gatherings such a Christmas, helped her a lot when she has broken bones and not been able to drive etc. When I talk to my friends about it they are all very sympathetic and say it's her loss but I very much feel it's my loss as well as I would love a great relationship with my Mum.

I have tried to talk to her a couple of times over the years but she completely denies any if it. I have accepted the situation for what it is now but struggling not to become bitter about it.

My lovely MiL was another who actively enjoyed looking after little dds on the odd occasion it was asked - we were mostly living abroad at the time. My own DM didn’t even always try to hide the fact that she was bored or irritated with them, even when I was also there.

It did hurt me a lot at the time. I still recall being in tears when I once took them out to get them out of her way - they were maybe 3 and 6.
But again, my DM would have denied any such thing if I’d ever brought it up, though I never did, since it would only have led to a row, and/or some serious sulking - with ‘that face’ on.
My father was lovely with them, though, for which I’ll always be grateful. Sadly he died when they were only 8 and 11.

Must say it’s cathartic writing this down!

I really don't agree with this. I could maybe accept someone raising children in the 1940s to late 1960s being a bit of a traditionalist but I would hazard a guess that the OP was a child in the 1990s and maybe even into the 2000s. There's really no excuse for it now except a steadfast refusal to learn.

I'd turn it around every time she says no or makes a comment 'oh that's funny because you look after gold child's children all the time' 'oh that's funny because golden child went away and you thought that was great' 'Oh you won't help me out, oh i'll remember that when you need a favour'

She sounds awful tbh.

So while your MIL is working for free for you — there at the school gate every day, providing care that would otherwise cost you £££s each month — how is she providing for herself? Is she working? What has she had to sacrifice to enable you?

I'm more your mum's age. Having raised three children and done it all before, I wouldn't tie myself down day-in, day-out, to a routine that means that from 2.30pm every weekday I have no freedom. You're expecting a massive amount of support. MIL may enjoy it or she may not. It suits you to think she does and maybe she says she does because she wants to stay in with you.

There was still a lot of this in the 80s and 90s. The vast majority of homes were one income households where the male traditionally was the one that worked.

This fed into the gender stereotypes that probably didn't change until post 2000.

So sorry you’re going through this. Of course you‘d like a better relationship with your mum. Unfortunately, there’s nothing you can do about it. My mum spent years running after my Grandmother hoping for affirmation and love. It never came - she just couldn’t do it.

Do consider counselling for you to be able to cope with the relationship and decide what it can look like henceforth. It’s not the way it should be, but it’s sadly the way it is.

AFA the children are concerned- I don’t know your mother or what happened in your childhood. However, my grandmother did damage my sister. Maliciously. The extent came out years later. I was the golden grandchild, which comes with its own problems, but kept me safe from worse. No idea if this could be an issue in your family dynamic, but do consider it seriously if you can.

"try to be close" to her sister?

Why don't you actually read OP's posts? She is close to her sister!

If you press "see all" on the OP you can read all the updates and avoid contributing uninformed nonsense, no matter how well intentioned.

Yes of course, its women, especially OLD women, who are to blame for the patriarchy.

Om forbid that men take responsibility for the hierarchy built for men by men. So much easier to blame it on the women conforming to the hierarchy.

There is still a lot of sexism in society.

Are you in Ireland? Are you in a traditional society?

I'm in ireland. My mother is exactly the same. She treats my brother like a king and she treats me like a maid.

Im looking at my cousin's. All of my male cousins still live at home in their late thirties, they are treated like kings. All my female cousins had to leave home in their early twenties and work to make their own way in life.

There is a lot of sexism in society. Men are seen as worth a lot more than women.

FWIW, as adults children tend to recognise who really cared for them and who was a Disney relative. My DC have their Disney memories of my charming, funny but deeply selfish FiL but he isn't the one they remember with deep attachment and fondness. It was the DGPs who were there for the small things and in difficult times who built the deeper relationships.

FiL also regarded his eldest as the golden child who could do no wrong and whose DC should be prioritised. The kids do notice it. Fortunately she didn't play up to it and tried to minimise it, but that is to her credit rather than his. It was very hurtful to the siblings at times.

Agree with PP - don't let your DC observe you being treated as a second class member of your own family. Let her do her Disney visits but don't trouble yourself with anything more. Make sure she has golden child's number when she wants grunt work done.

Had similar though not male /female thing in my family.

Odd thing was my parents had similar in their families and with us - they've still done it denied it when spoken to.

I probably am mildly bitter - I likely sound it when speaking about it but generally try and ignore. I did find it upsetting I was begrudge evening out or holiday with family when favours siblings was offered childcare for weekends away - but it's done and gone.

I try very hard not to dwell on it - and try and protect your own DC from any fall out though likely they'll just accept the situation as normal.

I don't really agree that men built a patriarchy. I'm sure it's a comforting theory for some people but I think it's an over-simplified catch all term that fails to consider any nuances in how our society has come to be. In particular, the idea that working class men have had any privilege or control over their lives for most of human history is clearly ludicrous to me.

Even if I did believe in the patriarchy theory, the idea that it's as simple as men vs. women is clearly nonsense. There are plenty of women who will fight very hard for a lot of the misogyny that's still out there. They'll rally against abortion, they'll complain about colleagues getting maternity leave, they'll insist mothers are more important than fathers to guilt women to stay at home, they'll sabotage other women's careers etc and they will do all of that with a lot less guilt or shame than men will because they are women themselves.

1. @PumpkinsAndCoconuts "Your nephew is already feeling let down by the grandmother he loves favouring his cousins."

The nephew IS the favoured child.
Why is that so hard for you to follow?

Good grief, do you really not have any understanding of how hierarchies work or are you just goading a women centred forum?

Both my DM (and DDad) had died a few years before I had my DS. I'm not sure how things would have panned out if DM had lived longer. I remember once, in my early 30s, saying to her, 'Wouldn't it be lovely if I had a baby?' 'Well, you'd have to look after it,' she shot back immediately.

I never mentioned it again so it's all I've got to go on.

My DM did have to walk 'my' dog when I was at school and maybe there was some previously unvoiced resentment there. Maybe she would have wanted to help if an actual baby arrived - that's what I would like to believe. I'll never know for sure one way or the other.

Yes, it is a loss. Having the opportunity to bring up the next generation with a DM who is delighted to be involved is a true blessing to be cherished.

@Isittimeformynapyet
The nephew in question, the one feeling let down, is the son of OP's sister - who is treated (and her kids treated) the same as the OP. The favoured child nephew is the son of their golden child brother.

Why is that so hard for you to follow?

@C8H10N4O2 Instead of being insulting, how about a proper debate? You talk about hierarchies but then you only seem interested in one, when there are many.

My own view is that class has been a far more important factor in hierarchy than gender in the UK. We're not well prepared to believe that in the UK because of the way history is taught here. We're often told that women got the vote in 1918 for example, but no one ever really mentions that at the same time 40% of men were finally able to vote for the first time too. Or that a lot of upper and middle class suffragettes really weren't interested in universal suffrage for the hoi polloi.

The idea of a "patriarchy" has also typically been much more important in the upper classes in British history because everyone else had more obvious hierarchies to deal with.

My own view is that class has been a far more important factor in hierarchy than gender in the UK.

It's very easy to hold that view as a man. Very few men know what it's like to be held back, penalised, demoted or denigrated specifically because of their gender, unlike the vast majority of women.

@Gymnopedie I'm glad you said it!

And I could flip that around and say that's a very easy view to hold as a middle class woman living in a western democracy in the 21st century.

One of the reasons I don't believe in patriarchy (and I use this term distinctly from misogyny, which I agree is widespread) is because:

1. I think some women are as guilty as some men at perpetuating it and the idea of all men imposing a hierarchy on all women does not exist; and

2. I find it quite compelling that @C8H10N4O2 feels they can tell me what I have to believe without evidence or reason.

I agree. My mum is in her 70s and she doesn’t hold these bullshit sexist (sorry, ‘traditional’) viewpoints.

@FSTraining
My own view is that class has been a far more important factor in hierarchy than gender in the UK.

I don't dispute your assertion that there is a hierarchy for men. There always has been since Roman times, the Lords and peasants, the Victorian mill owners and their workers. Nothing's changed there as you can see by looking at our present government.

But what you're not seeing is that however lowly the man in the pecking order, his wife was always one rung below. For hundreds of years it has been assumed - imposed by men - that the man is superior and he has behaved according to his own assumptions.

Women are starting to chip away at this attitude but they have a long way to go. The first would-be women doctors had to fight tooth and nail to be accepted into medical training. For a long time a working woman's place was in the typing pool. Women are still under represented in senior management roles. Sit in a workforce meeting and if a woman makes a suggestion it will often be overlooked, then when a man makes the same suggestion five minutes later he will be hailed as a genius (women have complained on MN about exactly this happening to them). Many companies looking to hire will still ask themselves 'what sort of man do we want for the job'.

Women still have a long way to go to be treated and accepted as equal.

Yes this would be an excellent response because it’s not emotional (not negating your feelings btw, just bc she can use your feeling emotional against you). You could add that you don’t want your kids to grow up with the pain of feeling less-than like you had to. Said in passing, comments like that can really land powerfully as the recipient isn’t wasting their brain feeling defensive.

@Gymnopedie I disagree with you for two reasons:

1. You cannot look at hierarchies in a vacuum. The wife of a poor man might be one rung lower than him but that doesn't mean that gender disparity is a concerted effort by one gender to suppress the other. The upper class woman throughout history has still had the advantage over the peasant man, the black man, the gay man etc.

2. All of the examples you are giving are middle class problems. The woman who couldn't go to medical school. The women who can't get into senior management. The companies looking for a "certain kind of man" which they almost certainly won't do for minimum wage jobs. I think the reason for that is that the patriarchy does not exist, at least not amongst the working class. I think perhaps one of the reasons for this is that the period of time when working class women - compared to middle and upper class women - were expected not to do paid work in order to raise children was incredibly short. Probably no more than the 1940s-1970s and even then some working class women couldn't afford to give up work entirely.

There have been pay disparities for working class women but compared to the middle classes the stories have been few and far between.

Again, his is why I don't think of the patriarchy exists. I don't think - once class hierarchies have asserted themselves - that most men have the power or control to assert a patriarchy. Personally, I find a more plausible explanation for the shape of society being the influence and control of both upper class men and also socially conservative upper class women. The chipping away you talk about barely scratches the surface of the resulting misogyny and class oppression because it is only interested in what it thinks of as this patriarchy, which is largely a middle class problem concerned with the kind of power, pay and career progression that most people will never experience.

I don't think you have read my post properly. My issue is not that my Mum is not doing free childcare for me. I totally understand why a grandparent wouldn't want to do that and that's absolutely her choice.

My MIL is retired on a good pension and picks the kids up from school 3 days a week and looks after them for an hour or 2 until we get in from work. She enjoys having the routine and seeing the kids, her own mum did it for her. Of course if there is any reason she can't do it then we make arrangements. She has made it clear several times when she feels like she is no longer able to do it or enjoying it she will let us know. We do a lot for her in return in other ways as well.