'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

You were being judged. In the OP’s scenario, however, friend A is patently not being the judgemental one. The “I don’t understand” bollocks came from friend B.

@TudorBeckham but the caveat is you can do those thing but baby comes first in terms of needs. And obviously once you have more than one you are often constrained time wise. I spent most of my mat leaves socialising and really enjoyed them

But why is she being so nasty about someone else? For all she knows there’s a lot more going on for Mum A. I don’t know many sahm but the ones I do have a lot going on and there are often other reasons why they don’t work. Let’s stop constantly judging what women do.

I'm pretty like your friend A. I'm a Foster Carer to a teen with SN. I drive him to college everyday racking up 98 miles each weekday taking 4 hours each day. I drive him to all his evening activities and wait then drove home home taking 2 hours 3 evenings a week. I cook most meals for the family. DH cooks FS a cooked breakfast every weekday. Does more housework and all laundry. DH works full time. We also have a cleaner once a week for 3 hours. We don't have a lot of time left over.

yeah but turn it on it's head - some might say "why would anyone like the life of being a corporate slave?"

This is why I don't have many friends- can't be doing with all this competitive shit. Just do what works for your circs and live and let live.

I have zero idea what that has to do with my post frankly... this post is about filling time not income but since your such a nebby mare we have income from my husband job.

Put away the claws and unclutch your pearls I'm not a single mam on benefit (not that there would be anything wrong with that either and they equally would not have to explain themselves to you).

For me to go to work now we would have to pay child care which would be MORE than I make... I didn't have kids to be broke and overworked while paying someone else to raise them for me.

If a mother chooses to work because it has a benefit for her then good for her but its not the default for most. Its why the government don't even expect mothers of under school age children to work because financially for millions it makes no sense and isn't financially feasible.

Is she a small child? Where is the expertise, leadership, use of professional qualifications? That sounds like retirement or young childhood and missing most of the joys of adult life!

Why should she have or do any of that if she doesn't want to and family income makes it possible?

I always wanted to be a sahm but in reality couldn't really afford it. So I gave up work outside the home and became a childminder - I had already worked 20yrs in childcare - so I got to stay home with my boys and earn some money at the same time. When they went to school I had lots of time on my hands and loved every minute of it.

I'm retired now, some of my friends say 'oh you are so lucky having all day to do what you want'. It's not luck, I'm at least 10+years older than most of them so they will be where I am in 10yrs time.

I wonder if most men would ever write posts like these. Or have any need to.

I have aways felt particularly uncharitable to the people who work 2 full time jobs or 1 job and also study) and are also full time parents. They are clearly lying, and having never been full time parents beyond perhaps a maternity moment, have not a scooby what that entails. I always get the impression that they look down on parenting work and those who do it. Otherwise how could they achieve it all by themselves whilst sleeping?
They remind me of that comment by the decorative Trump daughter who deserves so much money because she puts 110% into her work, so very much more than all those lazy low and mid paid people presumably.

I will now rtft.

OP, I get what you mean. I don't think SAHPs have these super cushy easy lives. Mostly I think the difference between them and me is that they're not as rushed as me -e everything I do is done at the lat minute, as quick as I can, and often not to the highest standard. Similarly, I find my friends who are SAHM are much much more likely to plan things in advance and do interesting activities.

Doesn't make either one better or worse, but it is different. And for Friend B to try and pretend she's doing all the same things AND working is a bit silly. At a big picture, absolutely - my children are well looked after, well fed, go to activities, we have a nice family life etc. But at the micro level, there are lots of differences. I'm fine with that, but it doesn't change the fact that I don't pre book lovely theatre shows 6 months in advance, I don't organise Christmas parties for my children, with games and personalised activities, I don't have a house that is permanently looking lovely with everything in its place, I don't take on much in the way of self-improving activities for myself etc. That's fine, I'm not stressed about it. But it is what it is.

Honestly, there are definitely times I want that life when I do another 80hr week… And then my jobs at home. 😆

I agree.

But also, I don't think this is right from OP: " I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard."

You're judging B's "standard" of mothering and/or wifing by how big and clean her house is, how often she hosts playdates etc and worst of all the fact that she does it with help from her partner rather than all herself. Surely above a minimum level children aren't especially happier in a VERY clean rather than perfectly alright house, having their mum at their beck and call if they want friends round every day rather than a couple of times a week (or prearranged) etc. It doesn't sound like B is doing anything to a lesser "standard", she's just doing things in a different way and presumably what her kids don't get in the way of constant playdates they will get in terms of seeing that their mum has an independent life and that everyone needs to work together in a family. It does sound a bit like you're being as judgemental as B.

For me, I need a balance and I did find doing nothing but those kinds of things during maternity leave to be dull, I definitely wouldn't have made it an entire year and went back much earlier than that.

I felt much better getting back into some sense of 'normal', it made me feel more like myself again rather than just 'mum'.

@housethatbuiltme nailed it.

I'm one of the fortunate that like what I do, I get to do something that genuinely makes a difference, leaves me feeling fulfilled, pays well enough and is a good example for my dc to see.

I can do all the things SAHPs do- between me and dh we cover all holidays, school events, drop offs and pick ups.

But, I can't think of anything more boring than spending my free time scrubbing down a grey house because mrs hinch said so and the patriarchy says women should. Or allowing a situation where the other partner isn't pulling their weight.

It's a load of misogynistic bullshit that keeps women fighting between themselves over this trivial stuff. We should be supporting each other and directing the anger in better places- like the men half arsing it and expecting their wives to be at home scrubbing, cooking, raising babies and submitting.

I hate posts like this. It's like when people call themselves a full time mum. Or a single parent. And others get upset. I was a single parent pre relationship but if I described myself as such to a friend she'd be very quick to point out that I wasn't actually a single parent as I coparented with my ex and so I wasn't doing everything alone and therefore wasn't a single parent. Lord knows I didn't know there was qualifying criteria. I'm also unable unable to call myself a full time mum as I work full time and so apparently I'm only a mum for part of it - nonsense.

I think when a working mum says that she does all of those things and works full time, what she means by that is that the house still needs managing, cooking,cleaning,shopping,appointments etc all still need arranging/completing. I'm not deluded for thinking that I have less spare time than someone else who doesn't work with children as I have to factor in 37 hours a week somewhere which is pretty obvious.

what I don't appreciate is the insinuation that lady a is happier or better - we are all just living with our own choices and doing our best - please stop putting mothers up against one another. No one knows what's going on in other peoples lives

I'm with B - the kinds of things A does expand and shrink to fit the time available. I'd never say anything though. Tbh, in my experience it's always the As who bring it up and seem to have something to square with themselves in their head.

Depends if you're bothered about earning your own money or not. Not everyone is. I am, so I do. I'm too wary generally of people, not just men, to forego a source of income.

Yeah this. Some women who are mums - and are working, are fine with it. (And are fine with other mums NOT working.) Some are not. You can spot the jealous and bitter ones a mile off. In real life, and on message forums like this.

You can spot the jealous ones on here, making barbed comments like 'what is so 'lucky' about being economically dependent on someone else?' and faux surprised comments like ' but what do these stay at home mums DO all day?!' The jealousy and bitterness is very raw on here from some posters.

I don't see the same kind of vicious barbed comments aimed at working mums from stay-at-home-mums as I do from working mums towards stay-at-home-mums. Some comments from working mums about stay-at-home mums are really cruel and nasty. Some women don't realise how jealous they sound.

Not ALL working mums (and working non-mums) are jealous and bitter of stay at home mums/women who don't go out to work of course, but some are, and they are making themselves very noticeable on here.

Good thing we're all different then, isn't it? Some of these comments basically agreeing with B and sneering at A are really dispiriting.

Failing to split the space and time continuum aside, it's not possible to do everything someone else does plus what you do.Unless you have decided that some of the things they are doing aren't really things or, perhaps, that they just aren't valuable things.

That's fine. If this 'other' person is lying around, day dreaming about bollocks, then it would be reasonable to say say that you did all the valuable things they did in their day, plus the things you did. But when that valueless thing is spending time caring, playing with and teaching children it makes you wonder why they ever bothered having kids at all or how they can stomach paying someone else to do that on their behalf.

I'm with B.

How much sewing and how many parents evenings can A be attending for those to make up a large part of a day nevermind a year?

This subject should never be discussed amongst mums because it always causes insecurities to bubble to the surface on both sides.

Inwardly though I would actually be feeling sad for Parent A because her entire financial security is dependent upon the whim of someone else and it can be taken away any moment. If divorce happens she'll be thrown into the workplace at an entry level and that's not a great place to be later in life. It won't matter how many meals she's cooked or buttons she's sewn, it will be very tough. Always better to have financial security and independence. People think marriage provides this but it really doesn't. Assets can be stripped, salaries hidden and spousal maintenance is increasingly rare. 50-50 child access is on the rise so CM is lessened Unless you're wealthy in your own right there's no way I would give up my earning potential to be a SAHM because one day I may need to provide for my children.

I'll get back to other posts later but just wanted to correct this assumption.

I was more like A but now am more similar to B.

The standards thing is annoying as people are being deliberately obtuse. If you had a cleaner, cook, gardner, nanny etc doing the tasks that A was doing then of course you would recognise that each aspect can be completed to different standards. You can do a quick whizz around with the hoover and wipe surfaces or do a top to bottom deep clean. One type of clean has been done to a higher standard than the other. This is an objective fact. The question as to whether you think the extra time spent cleaning was worthwhile or necessary is a value judgement and not the same thing as acknowledging that different standards exist.

But not all women want to work outside the home!? A lot of work is not very fulfilling, and some of it is downright boring. Paid work is not inherently more valuable than so called 'wifework'. I think that the anti SAHM brigade are far more misogynist than the other 'side'.

@housethatbuiltme woah I was just interested if your DH was killing himself for a boss who doesn't give to shits about me in a job I hate

Its why the government don't even expect mothers of under school age children to work because financially for millions it makes no sense and isn't financially feasible.

What makes you say this? I think more mothers work than ever before & the whole child benefit, extra 15 hours incentivises women with good jobs to carry on working because as you say if you don't earn well childcare is too expensive.

I didn't have kids to be broke and overworked while paying someone else to raise them for me.

Gosh you are going to really judge me then as I used childcare despite not working!