'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

So in other words the answer is no, because far fewer women would be physically capable. I used the First World War simply to avoid having to talk about all the current wars taking place. As for WW1, women were given all sorts of roles at home that were known to require conscious thought - necessity is the mother of increased equality, after all.

@janetjupiter yes some women do want to be SAHM. No one has denied that. It's clear some do. And on an individual level that's fine as long as their partner is happy to be sole earner, and provided the SAHM is honest that they're doing it because they want to, and don't try to dress it up as having better outcomes for children etc etc

The fact still remains though that there are huge inequalities in society and many of don't feel comfortable with that and believe there are better ways for society to function

Society would certainly function better if people were a tad less competitive, aggressive and prone to fighting.

Midwives usually being women - for some or even many women? I’d be interested to know how many would prefer a female midwife.

… but women today can be on the front line and do any job a man can do, therefore I’m not exactly sure what point you are trying to make?

Equality is hardly measured by whether you work or not. There's a bit more to it than that!

Equality does not mean the same. Someone’s gender shouldn’t be a consideration when they are applying for a job - would you suggest that we should let women who cannot meet the physical competencies do jobs (important jobs) like front line service simply because they are women, in the name of equality.
The best person for the job should do the job, regardless of their genitalia.

Equality is hardly measured by whether you work or not. There's a bit more to it than that!

Absolutely. It's as much about men having equal opportunities to express caring and nurturing qualities

No one has said that either.

It's about many things, which people have said on this very thread.

Who are you asking, @SisterHyster? I’m not trying to make a point, just wondering out loud if there is any hope for society becoming less aggressive if more men take on caring responsibilities, I guess, or if women will balance it out by becoming more aggressive and less caring. How much of any of it is nature and how much nurture? How groomed are we all?

I was asking @5128gap - I replied to them.

It doesn’t come down to aggression via caring though, does it? Many roles in the military are caring by nature. And I wouldn’t assume those on the front line are “aggressive” either - we really shouldn’t have aggressive people in any line of work, if we are being ideological.

I think naturally less aggressive people are maybe more inclined to do caring roles (both paid and unpaid) and society has taught men that aggression is a positive attribute and being gentle is negative (“boys will be boys” and “boys don’t cry”) whereas girls get the opposite.

That people often reference the fact that historically women weren't required to engage in active combat as an example of inequality that benefitted wonen. Often when women are pointing out they should not be confined to or barred from certain roles people will say 'I bet you wouldn't have wanted to be in the trenches though would you?' In an attempt to suggest women only want equality when it comes to the desirable roles. It was a tongue in cheek reference to that is all.

So what are we teaching boys and girls now, then, @SisterHyster? Because as you say, less aggressive people do tend to gravitate towards more caring roles, and more aggressive people tend to gravitate more towards leadership (even if dreadful leaders) and competitive roles, and society views the more aggressive people as generally more successful. Are we not rewarding aggression? We certainly seem to have some very aggressive people in politics at the moment and an awful lot of aggression in general in the world.

We are. And THAT is what the debate should be!

I am personally bringing my kids up to believe they are individuals, not a boy and a girl (I don’t mean I’m bringing them up gender free; far from it. But I’m trying to show them they don’t have expectations based solely around their genders)

My daughter loves science, sport, dinosaurs, glitter, unicorns and fashion. My boy plays with his sisters dolls, loves his play tiara and also his screwdrivers (he’s a toddler)

It probably helps that I was the primary earner and their dad does more around the house than me.

Women giving birth and preferring to be assisted by another woman isn't a sexist stereotype, the first is an objective fact, the second is an understandable preference for same sex care that is just as likely to be about privacy and comfort than steteoptypes. Just as a man prefering a male carer would be unlikely to base this on a view men were more caring.

@SisterHyster - I have brought my children up the same way, too, but a bit of me fears that the naturally less aggressive one will could be eaten alive the way the world is at the moment and should have been prepped to be a bit more self-centred and aggressive…

My career is male dominated and my role involves leadership. It is competitive and you have to be confident and assertive.

Women aren't allowed to be confident and assertive though because society expects them to be people pleasers, especially when it comes to men. Men are always considered in a positive light when it comes to leadership, confidence and assertiveness but for women, negative language is usually used such as 'bossy' and 'cold'.

I don’t think that’s what’s sexist at all - the women wanting care by a woman. If so, I include myself in that. I actually meant that it benefits women: the lack of men in midwifery as it’s seen as a job for women. There was a male midwife doing a shift during part of my labour.

That is certainly true, @SouthLondonMum22 , but I see more than mere confidence and assertion in many of today’s leaders, male and female. I find that quite alarming.

Yes, the fact that few men want to be midwives does have the positive side effect that we are more likely to get a woman. But it's a low bar if we have to consider ourselves fortunate that because men have decided they want nothing to do with our labours (other than should a higher status more highly paid HCP be required, when odds on they make an appearance as the doctor) rather than we get women midwives because that's what we as women want.

I agree but I mentioned it as I only saw male obstetricians for appointments throughout pregnancy and it was men who delivered my babies in the end too.

Exactly. There have been lots of posts that are very negative about sahm. Don’t really want to quote them all.

Exactly. And it’s patronising and not the point for the women who want to stay home for a bit. It’s like retiring. Should women have to retire much later then men? Maybe we should be allowed to retire earlier. Maybe it should be equal. Lots of ways to look at this.

Negative posts both ways, let's not pretend there aren't.

The more enlightened posts are focused on the actual important issue that huge inequalities still exist in 2023

Type A or B is very busy but anyone of here saying cooking ‘lavish’ (I think we mean healthy fresh meals) is quick is deluded. Planning shopping and prep of fresh balanced meals every single day takes time and energy. It is absolutely exhausting. Keeping house spotless clean, clothes ironed dogs walked etc. And let’s not even start on the exhausting school PTA/voluntary event/fundraising planning cycle. Much easier and far more fun to go to work than be a SAHM. And I say this after trying both ways….thankgod mine are teens now lol…good luck however you get through those years…