'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

In most cases, "stay at home parents" is the biggest fallacy in British culture.

Congrats to friend B, but she should get her partner more involved in children care and home chores.

Friend A. Get to work, stop being lazy and loving on your partner's income.

Well, it would be a bit weird to have playdates at the house if you didn’t have children, unless you were a childminder or nanny. Friend A certainly sounds like someone who would make a superlative nanny. In fact, the one parent I know whose domestic skills and superlative organisation I cannot help but admire and marvel at used to work as a nanny before she had her own children.

I've absolutely no clue whether A would make a superlative nanny! But then if I were looking for a nanny, keeping the house immaculate and cooking lavish meals wouldn't be my highest priority; I'd be more focused on their interaction with the children.

B seems unable to acknowledge what A does and achieves.

I’m interested in how this came up in conversation as context is everything. Did you express your thoughts to B? Or was it more of a throwaway remark by B that you’re later dwelling on? Because it sounds to me as if you’re taking it very literally when B perhaps just meant it with more of a loose definition as to ‘everything’. If it was a full conversation about B genuinely believing they do absolutely everything A does and can’t imagine how they fill their time then B is either jealous/guilt-ridden (and a bit judgy) or lacking in imagination and critical thinking.

Exactly. What she does is largely housekeeping, and without intrinsic value. It has little or nothing to do with raising children or contributing to the world in any way. It’s a set tiresome domestic chores that are mostly unnecessary, beyond basic cleanliness and cooking.

Running a large house and cooking gourmet meals brings its own satisfactions, but it doesn't really qualify as a lifetime's achievement. Where is A's legacy?

If housekeeping has no intrinsic value then why do so many people pay for cleaners? Why do so many of us pay for Deliveroo if cooking is worthless?

I think it's hard to argue the 'intrinsic' value of anything when we live in such a capitalist world. For example, I would argue caring for the most vulnerable in our society (disabled and elderly) has a high level of intrinsic value because of the difference this makes to the individuals and society at large. Yet carers feel undervalued and often aren't paid at all if they are a family member or friend. Paid caring jobs are generally minimum wage and have low status. In contrast, who is to say that an investment banker has more intrinsic value or less? You are certainly paid more to do this role but what are you actually doing that benefits society? In some cases they are actively harming many with what they do and yet because they are in paid employment I would imagine you think they are doing something of more intrinsic value than A. The world is a crazy place! So many paid jobs aren't about adding value to society but about profit making, often at other people's expense. I don't judge because we all do what we have to do and my own business is controversial in some respects.

And yet housekeepers are very expensive. To imply housekeeping has no value either monetarily or practically is really odd. Visit a filthy neglected hoarder’s house and then tell me there’s no value in keeping your house in order.

Both caring and cleaning are to me high intrinsic value yet very low pay jobs.

Anyone living with a disability or illness would say that the line between care and domestic work is fine. Domiciliary care is what it’s called.

Fine as in fine line, not fine as in ok!

@Bumpitybumper you've moved a million miles from your OP! No one is arguing about the worth of paying for a cleaner/housekeeper/Deliveroo. Of course people will pay for a service if they choose to.

The point which you've revealed several hundred posts into the thread is that actually this has nothing to do with being a parent. Friend A likes to keep an immaculate house. She cooks lavish meals. Friend B less so. Which particular days of the week they do play dates (whether weekday/weekend/during holiday time) is irrelevant. As is sewing on badges. Those things all get done by both.

Did it concern you so much that A's housekeeping standards were always superior to B's, before either had kids, when they were both working women? Would you have started a thread about it then? Because quite honestly, all you're doing is making an observation, a comparison, between their housekeeping skills. It's nothing to do with being a parent.

Between DH and I we do 99% of drop off and pick ups. Holiday clubs we use because the kids enjoy them and it breaks up endless weeks of doing not a lot. I have a large house, I try and keep it immaculate but with pets and small kids it is rarely up to my exacting standards - I bought a robot vacuum cleaner to help. I also cook from scratch and volunteer at school.

But if I were a sahm to school age kids I'd get to relax a hell of a lot more!

It just blows my mind that people actively compare what they do to what other women. What’s the point? Why worry about what others do instead of focusing on your own life. The only time I’d actively
comment on anyone else’s set up is if they felt the need to comment on mine (but that’s never happened) . Otherwise I don’t even think about it. How can you compare when most likely there are multiple other differences in peoples lives like how wealthy they are, how supportive their partner is, how much family support they have, what need they have, how good their mental health is, how many kids they have, what needs their kids have, how active their social life is etc etc etc.

I work part-time. I could work full time or be a SAHM. I choose what I choose because I want the extra income, I have a partner who brings in money too, I only have 2 kids, I don’t have much family help and live in an area with very little out of school care, I struggled mentally in a full time stressful job. I thought about myself, my family and my own situation and tried to choose the best course based on that. I didn’t even think about what sue down the road does, or my mate Sarah.

Does that mean B is unlucky? She is the lucky one in my eyes but that's because I wouldn't want A's lifestyle.

Or I suppose they are both lucky if they are both living the lives they want.

There are so many sweeping generalisations resulting in a less than cogent, convincing argument here.

Eg I’ve seen comments like “I don’t want someone else raising my children” ie in full-time childcare with wraparound. This is obviously provocative, inflammatory nonsense. Mind you, of course teachers and nannies - especially if they spend a great deal of time with a family such as a live in one - play a role in shaping a child and influencing their experiences. If not, why do some of us go to great lengths to get them in the best nurseries or pay for the nearest we can get to Mary Poppins?

Then we have the comments suggesting SAHPs simply sew badges and clean in the extra time they have. A bit more candour wouldn’t go amiss here. Mine are in bed at 7 and fast asleep when my husband gets home. They might see him in the morning amid the usuals morning battles if he hasn’t already left for his Big Job. But the weekend is (mostly) for family. If I also worked his really long hours, we wouldn’t have time to do the stuff we do with them before bedtime - homework, reading, playing, simply having a conversation with them at dinner. So I am slightly envious of SAHMs who can do this all the time without the mania and laundry and life admin etc I am more familiar with. (But I don’t envy other parts of their life that have already been covered and frankly exhausted on this thread.) Of course great childcare would do all this stuff instead or we would on the weekend. But of course they don’t just sew and clean.

People often rise to statements as if they are challenges.
‘I make homemade pies’ - ‘Why? It’s so easy to use ready made pastry!’
’We go out every Friday for a curry’ - ‘What a waste of money! I make my own’
Occasionally, I have replied with ‘I’m not proselytising, I’m only telling you what I do. You carry on doing what makes you happy.’
Often down to jealousy.

But Friend B DOESN’T work f/t and does everything Friend A does. Friend B doesn’t keep a big house in an immaculate condition, make lavish meals etc.

I imagine Friend B simply meant that she also cooks, cleans etc as well as working FT.

Yes, you’re probably right. But Friend A does these jobs to a ‘bigger and better’ degree. Many years ago I remember feeling so envious of SAHMs!

Fascinating thread that has spiralled into a debate that really highlights the tensions between WAHM and WOHM roles as well as going from the particular of the OP’s friends to wider discussions about inequality in households/work because of the patriarchy (completely disagree that this is not a ‘thing’).

Re @Bumpitybumper original question: it is with a mixture of jealousy and frustration that I have to say that yes, my house is nowhere near as nice as my WAHM friend’s house and yes, my friend spends more time being with and supporting their children than I do. This is factually correct. I respect my friend and would never say that she does less work / that I do more work when we both work hard, but in different ways. I’m not sure why it is seemingly so hard not to agree with these facts?

As the ‘value’ of our work, that’s almost impossible to judge as it involves the here and now and the indeterminate future. My DC have lost and gained by me working outside the home, perhaps her DC have lost and gained by her working inside the home. Probably both are true.

What is very evident is that there is a lot of anger and frustration being expressed on this thread. WOHM feeling judged that they are not ‘good’ mothers / wives / housekeepers. Perhaps denigrating WAHM as compensation. Just as perhaps WAHM feel judged for not working enough/at all because children and running a house is not deemed ‘work’ i.e. is not paid.

Personally, I think women (esp mothers) are damned if they do and damned if they don’t in a way that men are not.

'A does these jobs to a ‘bigger and better’ degree.'
Or as the OP puts it, she's 'best in class' at those things!

And that's it. Nothing to do with being a parent. That's irrelevant. A keeps an immaculate house and cooks lavish meals. B and her dh get the same tasks done but to a 'lesser' standard.

I don't understand why the OP brought the issue of parenting into it at all, as this is clearly just about a set of tasks done to differing standards. (Of course, mentioning the SAH/WOH issue is stirring the pot...)

OMG so many pages of comments. Why do women feel the need to judge other women? Everyone’s lives are different and everyone makes choices and sacrifices in life to do the best they can for their own family. Who are you to judge how others lead their lives? These types of threads always appear on mumsnet from time to time and are very judgmental. Is this out of jealousy? Feel the the need to put down others? Insecurity about your own lives? Everyone is doing the best they can and this needing to make others feel guilty and this need to put others down is down to your own insecurities. Just stop it. Stop it. Does it make you feel good, looking down on others? Does it make you feel good about yourself? Think of the other person you are criticising…How do you think it makes them feel with what you say about their life? They could not have good mental health and do you think this helps them when you belittle and judge?

Why do women do this to each other? I don’t see many men being so judgemental. Women should be supporting each other. Life is hard for everyone in different ways. Why add to the stress but being so judgemental? It’s their life, not yours. You are in no position to comment on what others should or shouldn’t do.

If someone has too much free time and has decided to take on many non-essential tasks, and then complains to a friend who barely manages to squeeze the essential in that she's so busy, so busy - not surprising the other friend might give it a side-eye. Oh no, you do not have time to make orangepeel fox faces for your homemade potpourri, how terrible!

I think it really depends on your priorities really and what you deem to be better. It's subjective and will vary person to person.

I work FT but still prioritise going to the gym so I wake up at 5am on gym days to make it happen. I could get up early to have a more immaculate looking house but it's not something I deem to be better than the alternative of a clean but not immaculate house.

DH and I batch cook at the weekend because it is a priority for us to eat well when we are more time limited during the week but it isn't planned for every day because we are happy to have some balance and just get a takeaway or throw a pizza in the oven sometimes too. Though I'm still not completely sure what is actually meant by 'lavish' meals.

@DrBlackbird cross posts there.

It's not a parenting issue though. I've always WOH, though in my case I've never felt jealous or frustrated that SAHP have more time for housekeeping: perhaps that's because my standards are a bit lower if the house is clean and tidy and nutritious meals are cooked then that's enough for me. I don't need immaculate or lavish. Or perhaps it's also because I pay a cleaner and a lot of those household tasks are not something I particularly enjoy anyway.

But parenting is an entirely different thing from housekeeping. Dh and I have raised our children into happy and successful adults. We both WOH but no doubt we'd have raised our children just as well if we'd SAH.