'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

Here we are, squabbling amongst each other. Women sometimes are their own worst enemy it seems.
As parents we are working so hard to teach our children empathy but as we grow older we seem to loose that ability. We only tend to see the world around us from our own very egocentric perspective, everyone not fitting those parameters is so obviously doing something wrong.
There is no right or wrong here, everyone just making their life work for them.
And if you think I am a lazy bum because I can sit on the couch at 2pm and do some knitting after all the tasks at home are done while you are still busy working than you have just proven my point. And I honestly wish everyone, working parent or not had that 1 hour of me-time every day.

They would need to have a partner to be facilitated in the same way as the men we're talking about that have sahp.

I don't doubt that there are more single mums than dad's that do more and have more workload in regards to their children.

I currently have one child but I’m expecting twins so will soon have three.

To be fair, it’s AIBU and the majority of things on here are no one else’s business. Though I’d suggest that inequality and sexism is everyone’s business.

No, it's not unfair, it's a choice. I am not saying the father is completely uninvolved with his children (this is a very different thing) but between him and his partner they are able to manage family responsibilities in a way that doesn't hinder his career.

I would be interested to know who you think this scenario is unfair on. The DH who is happy he can pursue his career without limitation or the DW who is equally happy with her role. Is it unfair on you because your family have chosen to maintain two careers? Presumably you get two wages from these two careers and other benefits so why shouldn't the family with a SAHP be able to the reap the benefits of the competitive advantages that having a SAHP often brings?

@Bumpitybumper

No, it's not unfair, it's a choice. I am not saying the father is completely uninvolved with his children (this is a very different thing) but between him and his partner they are able to manage family responsibilities in a way that doesn't hinder his career.

It's a choice for that family, yes. It's not a choice for the vast majority of working mothers.

I don't think the scenario you have described is unfair to this specific (notional) family. I've gone out of my way to say I can understand why this situation suits many women and why they decide to go with this arrangement. And I don't blame people for taking this pragmatic approach. The point is societal.

It is unfair to women in society that a vanishingly small number of them are afforded this level of support for their jobs. It holds women back massively from achieving their potential that so few men believe it is incumbent upon them to facilitate their wives careers even to a quarter to the degree to which women seem to do for their husbands.

Well then that should be the focus, not shaming and demonising women. In my circle men took loads of time off and did shared paternity.

But if women feel more compelled to be with their children - on a societal level - then what is your solution @Thepeopleversuswork. Unless you're going to decree that all families have to have 2 working parents, by law, and all families can only have x number of children etc.

Its just never going to happen as long as humans are humans.

@Bumpitybumper you're essentially giving the same opinion over and over! You are very transparently Team A, you believe that because 'Friend' A is a SAHM, it's benefiting everyone around her, facilitating her dh's career, benefiting her children, her house etc etc ... but what you cannot do is extrapolate from that scenario that everybody else feels the same.

My children have grown up into happy, well adjusted, fabulous adults. Dh and I both forged our own careers without needing another adult not working to facilitate that. And our house was always clean enough, nutritious meals were cooked and brownie badges got sewn on.

For some reason you seem unable to fathom that not everyone is you. I don't assume every SAHM is bored, unfulfilled, or unable to get decent work. Yet you seem to assume that every WOHM is somehow feeling compromised or knackered. Weird.

They are given a pat on the back and a cookie for ‘helping’.

My husband once joined me in a baby class when he had booked a day off and heads literally turned when he walked in. He had a similar experience when out walking our baby on his own and giving a bottle while sitting on a bench. I’m practically invisible doing exactly the same thing, by contrast.

You have a problem with the men. It isn't their wives' fault. SAHM don't owe any more to society than anyone else does.

I wouldn't decree anything like this by law and there isn't a neat solution.

And obviously there will always be some women who can afford to remain at home and choose to do so. I can't stop that and nor would I want to. There are plenty of valid reasons why it makes sense for one parent to be more available for the children.

But I don't accept your apparent premise which is that this is just the way it is, it's biologically determined, big shrug of the shoulders.

There is simply no credible biological reason why, beyond the age when children are at school, it makes no more sense for a woman to be at home than a man. None whatsoever.

It's multi-factorial but the main reasons why this tends to happen are a) the fact that men typically earn more than women and b) there is a lot of societal baggage about caring for children being a "woman's role" and thus not a high status role for men.

It's absolutely fine for women to decide they don't want to work. That's none of my business. What is my business is when large amounts of men get to feel that having a woman at home is a necessity/birthright to allow them to get ahead in their careers and that women in comparable jobs to them who have no such facilitation are inferior to them.

So I will continue to respect the right of individual women to feel that they would prefer to remain with their children than doing a job they don't need to do. What I won't respect is the idea that this is somehow a natural organisation of labour between the sexes and we, as a society, need to just sit back and accept it.

No you don't have to accept that anything is a natural organisation of labour. Just accept that families will always do what works for them, regardless of whether anyone else likes that or not. Nobody sets out to make life harder than it needs to be. People find what works best for them, in their own specific context.

There is a huge societal pressure to do this and you see so many times when the women was going to going to go back full time after maternity leave, that somehow during her time off everything has fallen to her.

Then she goes back to work and is exhausted from trying to juggle it all and suddenly the man is working more late nights or picked up golf or cycling and does a few bits here and there to 'help'.

She realizes that she's the one who has to cut back in work hours and work around him and the children so she is resigned to giving up work or moving to part time because he refuses to step up.

After all, his job is much more important, and it never seems to matter what that job is, it's more important when a penis is attached.

Then the risk of being a sahm is great having to rely on him being fair. Her career takes a back seat as does her pension and even more risky id not married.

Men really have to be having a laugh at us mugs.

Which is part of the problem, the double standards.

I said it before on this thread but it’s the same when it comes to a father working vs a mother working too.

The father is a big hero working hard (long hours) providing for his family

The mother prioritises her career over her children, she’s part of the rat race who will clearly regret working on her death bed and she shoves her children in nursery for other people to raise.

I think that's really unfair. I obviously have started the thread with a premise that B doesn't do exactly what A does and have tried to use examples and arguments to illustrate why I believe this.

Like everyone, A's situation is quite specific so it's relevant that her DH has a career that would need a lot of facilitation in order to be compatible with family life. I totally accept this isn't the case for most people and that lots of families are able to facilitate two people working in meaningful careers whilst raising a family. My own family is now an example of this and we make it work.

I have never ever said or insinuated that all WOHMs feel compromised or knackered. Others may have self reported this but I haven't because I don't believe it to be true. I do though think that when someone is working the kind of job that B has and her DH also works FT then it would be impossible for her to do everything that A does as well as hold down her career. The wraparound care is the most obvious example where she physically can't be at work and also looking after her children at the same time but also she would be up until midnight doing various chores to even get close to what A packs in when her kids are at school and B is at work. I find it bewildering that people think it is offensive to point this out. B is doing something important during the majority of the waking day (i.e. working!) so why on earth should she feel like she has to match A?

Just accept that families will always do what works for them, regardless of whether anyone else likes that or not.
What works really depends on the society where we live though. How many women have said on MN they can't afford to go back to work due to childcare? How abot dads who would like to spend more time with their babies, but nobody in their company has ever taken parental leave, and their flexible working requests are denied, but female colleagues get theirs approved. Dads who are excluded from 'mum and baby' groups. Women who have to swim against the current and justify daily why they are working, and their bosses assuming they are not interested in any career development now they have kids. And so on. Those decisions are not taken in vaccuum. (Believe me, I've tried - I'm the main earner, DH was the one who stayed home.)

I think this is changing though, at least in the families I see, which is maybe a similar demographic to yours (I'm also in South London as it happens, professional careers etc).

For example at dd's nursery, a good proportion of the pickups and drop offs are done by the dads (maybe not half but close).

And I have a male friend whose gf has recently got pregnant; the male friend has a high earning job where he has to go abroad quite often for a week or two, at least ten times a year, and people have already asked him whether he's going to change job or role now because he's going to be a father. He'd be getting judgement if he just carried on and was frequently absent, rather than praise for "providing".

Incidentally he's my dh's closest friend and I think he and everyone around him see my dh's level of "presence" as a father as preferable (wfh, doing most of the nursery runs, braiding hair etc) and would be sheepish about continuing to go abroad all the time as a father.

So expectations on dads I think are increasing, and are no longer as you describe.

I have a "big job".

I have friends who are SAHMs.

We don't even consider this shite, we just crack on. Sometimes we even help each other out 😱.

I've actually really enjoyed reading this thread and all the different perspectives, so thanks for starting it.

But I do think OP that your own anxieties perhaps about what a woman should ideally do are coming out quite strongly. Even in your last post you've put "B is doing something important during the majority of the waking day (i.e. working!) so why on earth should she feel like she has to match A?" While you're being respectful the implication is that she doesn't "match" A, presumably in terms of fulfilling her role as wife/mother. I'm sorry if you feel that now you have your own business you are somehow failing to live up to an ideal, that must be stressful.

More widely I think there's a slight confusion on the thread about what "doing all these things" means. If you look at it literally timewise (which I think is your approach), B is clearly not spending X hours on cooking, X hours on volunteering, X hours on whatever that A does. But the way I read it (and maybe others too), "doing all these things" means "fulfilling these roles and getting stuff done". She is making sure the household income is kept up, as is A apparently by supporting high earning Mr A. She is feeding the kids by doing it herself, getting takeaway or having a husband who does his part - as is A by cooking lavish meals. She is making sure the kids are looked after and get to school and have a social life - as is A by being at home with the kids in her case. And so on. So I think she is right to think that she is doing "all these things" and working full time (although boasting about it/doing A down - if that's what she's doing - sound irritating).

It's a bit like if my friend and I each had kids who both needed new jumpers, and she got her own wool from her flock of sheep and then spun it and eventually knitted it into a jumper, and I went out and bought a similar jumper (or even had a hand me down from a friend or sibling) - we have both done the same thing in terms of providing the clothing that our child needs. She has spent hours and hours on it and I have spent 30 minutes on it, but we have both done it. And there isn't necessarily any real difference in the outcome, quality or anything else. What is different is the amount of "home made-iness" which I think is probably what the OP here values.

To be fair, the baby groups in my area welcome dads, not that they really go though, generally speaking. The only one that doesn’t is a breastfeeding one and rightly so if you ask me.

Friend B in some ways is saying she does not see value in sewing on badges or cooking meals.

I think both approaches to parenting have value. Showing your children the importance of work is valuable. Being there to volunteer in class or sew a costume, also valuable. We can’t possibly do it all, so we just have to play to our strengths.

You are probably right that my own insecurities and issues are evident on this thread, both in terms of how I am managing as working parent but also how I felt judged as a SAHP. It's a weird dichotomy I admit. To be honest though, I feel like most posters have a complex and interesting relationship with this topic hence why there are so many responses and things have got quite animated at times.

Your jumper example is a good one. I have no problem with you saying that you have provided a jumper for your child the same as your friend. I would just expect you to acknowledge if asked that their jumper was handmade and took more time and effort. I wouldn't expect you to think this made the jumper better, more valuable or more fit for purpose. In the case of the wraparound care, I think this is the same as allowing someone else lend your child a jumper for a while. Again, your child still has a jumper but it's not the same as you making one for them yourself and will be different than the handmade jumper. Ultimately the children in all scenarios have jumpers and won't feel cold which is the most important thing.

Friend B doesn't sound particularly a good friend but tbf if she's 'doing all that' and working full time she's probably absolutely knackered. Women being told they can do everything is ridiculous why the fuck should we.

I think everyone’s insecurities are coming out on the thread, this is not confined to the OP.

@Thepeopleversuswork - all you are doing is accepting, agreeing with and positively going along with abuses of power. You are minimising the fact the vast majority of women with children will never earn enough that they can go it completely alone and sod their abusive partner/husband. You are creating a fantasy for women where the reality is, women are just making other women suffer with their abusive rhetoric towards each other and the men no longer even have to get involved in it to get the boot in, because it’s the women gleefully behaving like shits towards each other with their “told you sos,” either when the working mother can’t cope with all the demands and feels like a failure at everything, or when the sahm is left without any money and told she is an absolute failure at everything. The reality is, a huge number of women have the absolute worst of all worlds, working inside and outside the home, paid and unpaid, and trapped in poverty with abusive partners, due to the obstinate refusal of some women to accept the real problem is abuse of power, not whether or not women do paid work.