'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

But facilitated men are just a subset of the wider category of 'people unencumbered by children'. The childfree also have a huge inbuilt advantage in the workplace as a result of choices they have made, much in the same way as a facilitated man.

There are also further categories of 'people with lots of family help' and 'single parents with no support network'. Each of these groups will either drive or be subject to inequality in someway and it seems a very strange thing to focus on SAHMs as the root of the issue.

Life isn't fair and nothing in life comes for free. The SAHP family will be losing out on a second income and pension, additional childcare hours and not utilising tax free allowances optimally. They may well be losing out on child benefit with one higher earner instead of two lower paid careers. They clearly don't have equal perks that dual income households enjoy but they will have other advantages.

I have a question regarding the facilitated man theory please and those that oppose sahm's because of this and the impact on working mums.

Why is the cause of the imbalance the working man's wife rather than their own family organisation? Surely you too have the choice to organise your carer, childcare, home workload with your partner/ child's father so that you can progress your carer too?

I'm guessing that you don't want to sacrifice an income or part income (partners or child's father) to do this?

Where there are two parents who can work together/ get on whether together or not surely the choices are both work full time, both work part time, neither work or a mixture depending on your own/ family priorities?

Aiming the blame of your own situation with women who choose to sah to facilitate the partners carer because that works for them seems quite unfair. Surely if you feel hard done by because you can't keep up with your colleagues that is about your choices?

On a macro level, I do believe it’s ethically questionable purely because it enables inequality within society.

Like I’ve said before, I doubt I would feel the same if men were just as likely to be SAHP’s or go part time but as it currently stands, it is women who are put at a disadvantage when they are already have to fight harder in the work place, especially if they are in male dominated careers.

But it would be nice if people at least recognised that the key beneficiary of the "facilitated man syndrome" isn't necessarily the children, its the man, and men more broadly. And that by the same token this syndrome is also damaging to women in society more broadly.

Yes - this 100%

So before we all rejoice at Friend A and her higher "standards" (as per the OP), lets consider that the playing field is massively stacked against Friend B in keepin anywhere near these "standards".

And this!
I'd say its easy to exceed and succeed at SAHP - you're setting your own standards after all, and marking your own homework. It's far tougher to exceed and succeed as a working mother, where some industries are old school and slow to pick up on flexible working and other measures that enable women to properly compete in work with their male counterparts. It's hard to compete against those male colleagues for promotions etc. when those men have a SAHM at home doing all their life admin leaving them to focus solely on work. It's hard to succeed when you are faced with insurmountable targets and KPIs whilst also doing 50% of the home chores and childcare duties. Friend B has the busier life - because she has all those 'home tabs' open in brain daily, PLUS all the 'work tabs' too. The mental load is just more.

Personally, my view is that my children benefit far more from having a more involved father in their lives - that may mean both me and husband are a bit chaotic and the poor dears need to sometimes attend after school club, but they get to grow up in a home that is demonstrating how a modern, equal relationship should play out. With both mum and dad being involved in their education, doing their share of the household chores and respecting each others contribution to the family (both financially and 'in-kind') completely. As a mother of 2 boys, this is very important for me.

@cubic no one is blaming the sahp, that is their choice, just saying that parents who take on both working and majority childcare (and let's be frank, not always because of their own choices) will not be able to compete at work with those that can do way over expected hours in spite of companies professing that is not what they expect.

I don’t blame individuals, I blame society having different standards for men and women when they become parents. I blame sexism.

It isn’t about finances for me personally, I’m the higher earner and we’d still be more than comfortable if DH became a SAHP but it’s not a setup either of us want or agree with for several reasons.

@SouthLondonMum22and @FlippyFloppyShoe but then that's your / their choice.

I agree that society does place more pressure on women to do the lions share but equally we do that to ourselves. We choose (most of us) who we raise our family with and how we do it. Women have more opportunities than ever before. Not organising our lives to facilitate our careers in a way that enables the kind of progress a facilitated man or someone with fewer responsibilities is more our own fault rather than society especially for those that can see and understand that more is needed in these careers to progress than contractual minimum.

Is the bigger problem that we're often told we can have it all and there does need to be more of a conversation around the fact that something somewhere has to give.

Why does Friend B care? Everyone's circumstances are different, don't pocket watch and focus on your own life.

I am a single mum to 3 DC, exh does take the kids every 2nd weekend. I am disabled and dont work. Amongst others, I have chronic fatigue and Fibromyalgia, my condition list is actually massive. My house is busy, moderately tidy. I do all the running ab9ut for kids clubs, I volunteer at the school, I paint (canvas) in my spare time, i do all the parents nights, doctors/hospital appointments and emergency stuff. All of my friends have kids, work full time, are all 2 parent famillies, and their houses are much tidier than mine and do the kids' club runs, etc. They would never judge me the way that friend B had judged friend A, and neither would I. Everyone's life is different, and everyone has their own struggles. I think friend B sounds very ignorant and judgemental of a life that she isn't living. Friends should be supportive of each other and not look for ways to bring each other down.

You cannot do the same as a facilitated man if you are not a facilitated woman. Are you one of those that blame women for 'their lack of judgement' for having their partner die or having to divorce someone for their shockingly unreasonable behaviour as the reason their 'choices' have not facilitated their careers?

Going by this thread, perhaps, at the macro level, we should 'have an issue' with childless women and men for having greater flexibility in the workplace. Perhaps we should also 'have an issue' with those women who only have one child, as opposed to several? Or those who can rely on family help? There are so many permutations of this, you could go on all day. Ridiculous and also disingenuous to make it all about SAHMs, as if that's all there is to it. Perhaps those so-called 'facilitated men' mentioned on here have 2, 3 or 4 kids to your 1, in which case they will still have more on, child-wise, in their 'out of work' lives than you, regardless of whether their wife works if not. If you think life is busy with one child, try several.

I disagree that women do it to themselves, not when women are taught from practically birth that they are ‘carers’, to ‘be kind’ and put others (usually men) ahead of their own wants and needs. We live in a sexist society and it is so ingrained.

Women are told that they can have it all, men don’t need to be told that because they are never expected to take as much parental responsibility as women. They are given a pat on the back and a cookie for ‘helping’.

Women shouldn’t have to be making a point to society. They should have the choice to live their lives how they please and how works best for them. It’s not black and white be and end all, we all fluctuate how we prioritise careers, money, hobbies, family life at different points in our life. My husband has stepped back from promotions and achieving more at work to have a better family life. Good for him. I’ve done the same. We’re reshuffling our priorities at this time. We don’t cope well with our kids and incredibly high stress jobs. That’s ok. That’s not supposed to be offensive to anyone who’s chosen or has to keep the high stress job.

But you do realise some women actually really want to do that. It’s like saying women shouldn’t be doing the ‘caring’ jobs in society. Personally I like living in a world where there’s a mix. Everyone doing stem is crap. Not for me thanks. I can be highly intelligent and successful in my own way that benefits my family.

Of course it isn’t just about SAHM’s but it’s what the discussion is currently about. It’s one of the many symptoms of our unequal, sexist society but certainly not the only issue. Far from it.

It would be pretty sad if my incredible midwife and my grandmas cancer nurses had been replaced by men because women shouldn’t be in caring jobs. I also LOVED being off work with my baby, even if it wasn’t forever (I took longer than standard maternity leave though and found a new job later). Yes it probably did impact my promotion prospects. But, so? That’s not everything for me. That was my life and my choice and it worked well for me.

I'm absolutely not, I also wouldn't resort to a response which tries to classify the other person in that way.

All of the life events you have listed can easily happen to men too.

We do have choice over who we reproduce and spend our lives with. If you're of the view that your career should be facilitated why shouldn't your husband/ partner do that in the same way a sahm would? How can you speak of equality and not live that yourself? Women do have choices and can ask their partner to facilitate their job too. If they choose or decide that that situation doesn't work best for them that is their decision.

That is nowhere near what I said.

Women should absolutely be in caring jobs but so should men.

Agreed men aren't told they can have it all and society is sexist but in knowing this why be subservient to it. Most women and girls now understand equality, why agree to settle for a lesser career if that isn't what you want? We make these choices we can't blame our situation on other women's decisions.

@Bumpitybumper

But facilitated men are just a subset of the wider category of 'people unencumbered by children'.

But this is exactly the point. Fathers shouldn't ever be "unencumbered by children". Something has gone wrong if fathers are unencumbered by children.

It is profoundly unfair that if both of the sexes reproduce, raise and reap the benefits of having children that one sex gets to walk away from any of the life-limiting work associated with having children.

@Cubic ...if they have a partner.... then you are right

And women should be able to take time at home to be with children and so should men. Surely that’s a better world? Where we have more family and lifestyle choices?

But 'SAHMs' mean nothing if you don't take into account the specific family context @SouthLondonMum22 . Put it this way, very few families are going to have a SAHM for just one child (which is what I think you said you have). The SAHM set-up tends to happen where there are multiple children - all at different ages, perhaps different schools etc etc etc. It's totally different to just one child. How if you know what's going on in these 'facilitated men' lives. You have no idea. Imagine having 4 Xmas concerts to attend, 4 lots of parents evenings, 4 lots of school pick ups, 4 lots of homework, 4 lots of bedtimes etc (for younger ones), 4 lots of hobbies, 4 lots of illnesses, 4 lots if friendship dramas ..., and on and on and in. You can't compare! If a family has a SAHM, they will obviously have their own very valid reasons and what business is it of anyone else?

Of course it’s a better world but only if men actually do it as well.

They largely don’t. That’s the issue.

I think we live in such a hyper capitalist society that it's very difficult to know for sure what men and women really want. If you believe that if you wiped out the patriarchy then women would all be striving for careers and not be SAHMs then you have a point. If you think it might be more nuanced than this and it is likely that some men and women would want to prioritise other things such as family life then it all becomes a bit more complex.

Is the SAHM the unlucky sucker stuck facilitating the man or is she lucky that she gets the option to stay at home with her children when this is what she wants? Is the faciltated man privileged for being able to pursue his career with such freedom from family responsibilities or trapped working ridiculous hours away from his children to financially support his family? All roles can be viewed differently depending on which lens you look at them through.