'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

I’m not sure she is saying that, as she also, as a parent. Will sew badges and make meals, it’s her very point, she’s doing that and a day job. It’s what the op is about.

shes not saying there is no value, she’s saying she doesn’t understand how it’s a full time job,

i think if many stay at home parents are honest, that unless you live in a massive house with a large amount of pre school children or ones with additional needs then it isn’t a full time job unless you class basic parenting like bath time or homework or dinner time and feeding yourself as a job.

tnat doesn’t mean it is not valuable. But being valuable to your family and a full time job are very different things.

Are you feeling ok, @Walkaround ? Because @Thepeopleversuswork didn't say anything like that.

@Walkaround

all you are doing is accepting, agreeing with and positively going along with abuses of power. You are minimising the fact the vast majority of women with children will never earn enough that they can go it completely alone and sod their abusive partner/husband. You are creating a fantasy for women where the reality is, women are just making other women suffer with their abusive rhetoric towards each other

How the hell am I "going along with abuses of power" or "creating a fantasy for women"? Completely OTT reaction to my post.

I'm saying women need some access to their own money. I've never said they need to be totally self-sustaining and own everything in their own right. I'm simply saying its very risky to be wholly dependent on the whims of one other person for your financial security and to build an entire life around that person without a get-out clause.

Maybe in some tiny pockets but within society as a whole? I don't think so.

I still experience it myself all of the time. I'm pregnant with twins and I've had more than one person question how I will 'manage' working full time, no one has asked my husband that or if he will cut his hours down/take a career break.

I can't even go outside alone without someone asking where my son is if I bump into someone I know. Again, my husband is never asked where his son is if the same thing happens.

@Bumpitybumper you're overly invested in the detail of the infinite different detail of how parents organise their lives. Some people will have both parents working, some neither, and every possible permutation between: part time/ flexi, using proper regulated childcare, not using childcare, using relatives for informal childminding... you also seem obsessed with quantifying the basic tasks of caring for children and running a home.

Ultimately, does it matter if a child wears a lovely hand knitted jumper bought from a shop or a lovely jumper hand knitted by a SAHM? Does it matter if a SAHM changes 5000 nappies or whether some of the thousands of nappy changes happen at the childminder or nursery?

As I keep saying, surely what's important is raising happy well rounded children to adulthood. That can be done (or not!) by SAHM or WOHM. Raising children is about imparting values, not simply a quantifiable sum of tasks. There is no 'right' way to do it. Tbh I find it slightly odd that you felt so invested as to begin a thread about how other mums spend their time.

Agree with this.

This is Mumsnet. Unbelievably the forum is populated with all kinds of threads about motherhood and the details around it. Starting a thread doesn't make me overly invested. I don't lay awake at night thinking about this or really think about it much in general life. It's as simple as B making a comment and that triggering a thought process that I shared on here. I think the 'over invested' line is trotted out on MN when people would rather not discuss a topic. It's the equivalent of a kid calling another 'weird' for questioning something. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing this and the amount of replies including your own, show that many people are interested in this too.

The nappy changes and jumper might not matter to you but they might matter to someone else who will organise their life accordingly. I could list a million things that other people care about that I don't but I don't automatically assume that they are wrong to care about those things. I'm sure our lists of priorities in terms of motherhood and every other aspect of our lives would differ and that is absolutely fine. There isn't a 'right' way of doing it but there are different ways that require different levels of effort and time. As I have said a million times, I have no quarrel with anyone saying that they don't think that devoting so much time and effort into something isn't worth it for them or they think it's unnecessary. What I don't think is ok is pretending that it's all exactly the same anyway and that your shop bought is the exact same as someone's hand made one.

And yet nobody has said that A is doing the equivalent of a FT job, least of all A herself. B is literally saying she does ALL that A does and a FT job. My observation is that this simply isn't true.

I'm sorry to hear that people say that stuff...I don't get that much from the people I know (maybe I'm too prickly?!)

When people see me out and about without DD they ask how she is rather than where she is if that makes sense. They definitely ask DH the same if they see him.

If anything, because my dh wfh, seeing him outside the house without dd is a rare event lol.

If I see a dad from dd's nursery my first question is how is his kid, same as if I see a mum.

With the twins thing, (congratulations btw! Hope all is well with the pregnancy! I'm PG atm too but just a singleton) I'm honestly amazed they don't ask your dh the same, or at least whether he's taking extended pat leave. It's my first question to any expectant dad (that I know well enough to ask this kind of question), let alone of twins.

I just find it boggling how hands-on dads manage with just two weeks' paternity leave. My male colleague at work is up a lot of the night with his poorly newborn and it's taking its toll on him and his wife for sure.

Extended paternity leave (without reducing maternity leave) is the answer to all these problems imo.

B is doing the same as A. She is raising her children, feeding them, doing household jobs. Yes the standards and methods differ but she is doing the same. I like the analogy of the jumper that PP made - if your kid is clothed and warm, then there are many many ways of achieving that outcome.

We can talk about “busy work” or “slapdash” if we want to use judgemental language about how other people organise their time - but they are (we are all) raising our children, feeding them, doing household jobs.

We are not jealous that you get to clean your toilet or sew badges on 😂don’t flatter yourself!
From,
Every working mum ever.

@SisterHyster

We are not jealous that you get to clean your toilet or sew badges on 😂don’t flatter yourself!
From,
Every working mum ever

This. It's perfectly possible to disagree with another person's position without being jealous of them. It's called critical thinking - you should try it.

It is indeed not a competition but it is a social issue which affects mothers and this is a site for debate by mothers so it's entirely legitimate to raise this without being accused of bitterness.

Except it is a fantasy, @Thepeopleversuswork. A woman may work but still be told it’s just a pocket-money job which is deeply unimportant and really doesn’t make up for the time and freedom lost by being at the beck and call of both her partner and an employer. I’ve seen plenty of women kick other women for that. It’s a bit of a cop out and does not ring true to claim the only thing you really have a problem with is someone who does no paid work outside the home and that this is the Russian roulette situation that concerns you, whilst carefully avoiding saying how much money you think a woman needs access to and what she is allowed to count as “her own” money.

The reality is, Friend A is likely to be in a far, far less vulnerable position than a great many women despite not working, as she is patently highly competent and in a financially comfortable position. She does not sound like a victim, or someone playing Russian roulette in any meaningful sense, albeit of course she could be hiding an abusive relationship (which would also be the case if she were doing paid work - either her partner is abusive or he isn’t…). I suspect she is married and has access to pooled finances which she no doubt views as hers as much as it is his. You should save your fears for people who are actually being abused, not people capable of looking after themselves and making informed decisions. Paid work is not a panacea.

What exactly do SAHMs do that WOHMs don’t do if you have school age children?
I’m yet to see a post that specifies anything that working parents don’t do.

I work full time, and I don’t see the value in cleaning. I make just over £40 per hour. I pay someone £20/hour to clean for me. They do it better than I would. Similarly, I can get a meal out for us all for £60, and it would take me way more than an hour and a half to cook and clean up a similar meal.

Anything that I can outsource for less than my hourly rate, I’ll outsource. Gardening, washing the car, I even send my laundry off sometimes. We eat out a lot.

Just because someone is a working mum does not necessarily mean they are run ragged, feeding their kids chicken nuggets and neglecting them whilst they cram a full days admin into a few hours before bed.

When they go on about how much better they are than mum A and how much they do, they come across as over invested and jealous. Who gives a crap .

You, evidently.

Yes, when someone’s nasty. Who gives a crap about someone else’s work status. So thankful my friends are nice people and we actually respect each other.

I used to be a SAHM, now I'm a WOHM.
When I was a SAHM I helped to run a weekly toddler group, went into school every week to hear children read, volunteered time for a number of charities, was a school governor etc.
Now I'm a WOHM I volunteer a little bit, but I don't do the other things.

That is the answer to your question in my case.

It’s not what you do, it’s the way that you do it 😂.

@MrsSchrute I work 30 hours per week. In the last week I have volunteered on : occasions, twice at events my children have taken part in and once for a charity. I will be volunteering to help at a school sports event in a couple of weeks and volunteer at most PTA events.

@Walkaround

A woman may work but still be told it’s just a pocket-money job which is deeply unimportant and really doesn’t make up for the time and freedom lost by being at the beck and call of both her partner and an employer. I’ve seen plenty of women kick other women for that. It’s a bit of a cop out and does not ring true to claim the only thing you really have a problem with is someone who does no paid work outside the home and that this is the Russian roulette situation that concerns you, whilst carefully avoiding saying how much money you think a woman needs access to and what she is allowed to count as “her own” money.

You're projecting your own perspective on the work women do. The picture you're presented here is a particularly bleak and twisted view on paid work by women which I don't recognise from my life or most of my female friends and your logic seems warped.

I'm a lone female breadwinner and I'm wholly responsible for my family's financial wellbeing so this is completely inaccurate with respect to my life. That may not be the norm on the national basis, but it's not as unusual as you suggest. Even if you aren't able to support your own family and you're contributing to a wider family "pot", I'm struggling to understand why not earning money is better than earning money? There's no logic to that position at all.

The more your financial contribution to the family, the higher your autonomy. I'm not saying that this is the only way to have autonomy in a family, there are plenty of women who don't work but who have high status in their families, but anyone bringing some money in is automatically in a stronger position.

Meanwhile you reference the Friend A in this scenario as being in the best possible position. That may or may not be true, depending on her husband's job, their relationship and myriad other factors. If she's married and he has a lot of money and treats her well she may indeed be set up for life and good luck to her. But it is by definition a gamble. It's a gamble that he will make good on his promise to support and protect her. It might work, but she has no control over it. Yes she would probably get a decent payout in a divorce (and she's welcome to it). But not without several years of pain and almost certainly involving uprooting her children in the process. And with roughly half of marriages ending in divorce, why would you want to hand that level of risk to someone else?

That's great!

@lizzy8230 right, this is laughable, come on now, you can't be serious that's what you think the average SAHM spends their time doing 😄🙄 It's telling seeing some working mothers on here desperately trying to assuage their guilt of being away from their kids by trying to belittle mothers who stay home with their kids. If you were truly secure and happy about your choices, you wouldn't feel the need to do that. Which also goes for "mother B" in the OP's example.

Being at home with the kids instead of working, naturally means you're able to spend much more quality time with your child. It's nothing about denigrating working mothers, it's just stating a simple fact and acknowledging the rules of our Earth that no parent is (yet!) able to bilocate and be in two places at once. And what do you think the children themsleves prefer - the vast majority of course would prefer their own parent looking after them and this is what is best for them.

Even if your child is in school while you're at home, you're able to be there for your child to pick them up from school each day and can spend that time while they're in school catching up on running household/errands/cooking etc and therefore when they're actually home from school, you can use the time to focus on spending quality time with them instead of being side tracked by having to all these other tasks at the same time, that you would have to do if you're a working parent.

I don't get this argument.

Are your kids happy and well looked after? Are you happy with the choice you've made? Then crack on!