To think society hates children?

[Orangeandgold]

During a crisis people tend to defend children and babies, but on a day to day basis when everything is “normal” I usually find and feel so much hatred towards children.

My DD picked this up quite young too. It is small subtle everyday conversations and actions.

I would have to remind an adult not to barge past a 5 year old when there is enough space on the pavement; or people that feel that they can comment or roll their eyes at you and be malicious because you have a buggy; or general comments in conversations about “all kids are brats/ those children/why would anyone have them.”; animals are so much more loving than children …

… and the comments go on!

If you don’t want children you don’t have to have them, but we were all kids once. AIBU to feel that society in general hates children and to get upset about it every now and then? Or am I just in a pessimistic bubble? Maybe it’s also the city, people have less tolerance? I just feel nobody really looks out for each other the way we would growing up - I would have neighbours on the look out as a child but now it’s different.

I don’t see hatred of children.

What I do see a lot of is lack of tolerance and understand for the less able, be they children toddling clumsily along, or elderly people doing likewise,; persons with recognised disabilities and those with hidden disabilities including SEN, whether adults or children.

I don’t see much reverence for the elderly from society as a whole; any reverence is from vote seeking politicians.

I do agree OP with your comment ‘I just feel that nobody really looks out for each other…’

There are of course exceptions to this, it en masse, we are a pretty selfish bunch.

The only time I legged it in front of others to get a seat (as best I could) was when I was heavily pregnant and the train company fucked up the seat reservations.

I agree with this. I don't have children. I don't have a problem at all with well behaved children.

I have a problem with parents who allow their children to run feral in public places and disrupt the enjoyment of others. I.e kids running around restaurants/museums/pubs shouting and screaming.

It seems to be British children especially. I've spent a lot of time in the US, France and Italy in the past year, and seen children with gorgeous behaviour and manners.

Parenting in the Uk seems to have gone "gentle" to the point that kids aren't being parented anymore.

Men and women in their 40s and 50s revolving their life around music gigs and bars as if they are still teenagers at university. Adulthood has lost it's way and the attitude towards children reflects that, mostly because it does not match up to the lifestyle that a lot of people are choosing

@Newphony

It’s a really uncomfortable thing to broach, but I think there’s an element of truth in this. My local social circle consists largely of what would be older parents (we’re in London, so the ‘norm’ is having DC later) who have established their careers before having DC. Most people aren’t wealthy but are reasonably comfortably off.

Almost every discussion on WhatsApp groups, at the school gate, on nights out etc revolves around how to carve out as much time as possible without the kids, how the kids are hampering their careers, how they wish they were at Glasto or a gig rather than doing childcare, how boring they find playing with their kids, how much less fun holidays are now etc. Many of the kids are dragged from pillar to post every weekend attending (adult) festivals, visiting old university friends on the other side of the country, going on weekend mini-breaks to Porto or Berlin etc. We’re taking babies, preschoolers and young school-aged children here.

Of course, maintaining your own identity post-kids is important, but there’s very little consideration of routine, stability, what would be optimal for the DC etc - it’s primarily about how they can continue to live as similarly as possible to the way they lived pre-kids. It’s quite striking how different this approach is from my school/university friends who had their DC much earlier, 10-15 years ago, and largely accepted that their lives would now be different and compromises would have to be made.

This.

It's also quite natural to display some selfishness, in that you put your nearest and dearest first in a lot of situations and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The default for nature is survival of the fittest but you hope most humans have evolved to have some consideration for others.

Exactly. It's the entitled parents that I can't stand. I also hate performance parenting.

The thing is - some people are annoying full stop. In a cafe last week, I was trying to read a book and a woman plonked herself on a table next to me and proceeded to go on a very loud conference call. And don't get me started on the Facetimers on public transport.

I don't think children as a group are more annoying. But there is this perception that they are expected to be better behaved than the rest of us.

And more especially when he's black.

Oh same, I talk to mine all the time! I just love talking so anyone with me gets an earful! Poor dog 😂

My DP said it was common attitude when they had young kids late 70 early 80s.

In early 2000s I met many more nice people than not - but I do know what you mean.

Few that stick in my mind are often where the people later came over to apologise/compliment us on our kids behavior - one that stand out train/panto - where you'd think young kids would have been anticipated, medical appointments including those for one child - coffee shop - and a Tudor house we went round on holiday - kids were school age but woman said in front t of them she usually hated kids but ours were exceptionally well behaved and were asking some very good and interesting questions - they stick because I do feel some resentment that I was made unwelcome when my kids had clearly done nothing wrong and unsure what response was required of me.

I do think post covid tolerance has decline and general behavior and consideration for others in public places has declined - but also many parents are parenting in a way that erodes what tolerance there is.

My teens now regularly use noise canceling headphones on public transport - and I do think I may follow -because so often young kids are allowed screens with volume full blast right behind you but then had adults do the same. Running round shops and coffee shops/restaurants and parents getting annoyed people carry things have near misses. But then I've seen adults be deliberately and unnecessarily difficult with parents with young kids - so maybe it's a spiral of poor behavior begetting poor behavior back.

What exactly is performance parenting? Does discussing dinner options with a toddler in a supermarket count?

And Bingo! The performance parenting trope has been rolled out too.

So that’s French kids are perfect and PeRfOrMaNcE pArEnTiNg so far.

Teach your children respect and good manners and stop them ruining everyone else's peace and quiet. Stop taking them to pubs/restaurants and letting them run riot. Get off your ruddy phones and take them to the local park to run off some energy.

Then the general public may be more accommodating

Another thing I will add, is that the amount of polite young people and teenagers out there vs the older generation is astounding. I regularly let older drivers go or hold open doors for them or let them go first and sometimes don’t even get a thanks. So many young people have happily given up their seat for me or held open a door or moved out of my way. Lots of young people have amazing manners.

And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am an older person now so I can say that!

LakeTiticaca · Today 10:17

Teach your children respect and good manners and stop them ruining everyone else's peace and quiet. Stop taking them to pubs/restaurants and letting them run riot. Get off your ruddy phones and take them to the local park to run off some energy.
Then the general public may be more accommodating

Hmm perhaps you could do with learning some respect and good manners yourself here. Oh and tolerance of other people. Id quite like miserable grumpy bastards kept out of pubs and restaurants myself, tutting and birching about other people. I'm happy for kids to stay though. Most of them I come across are pretty well behaved.

I think it would be performance parenting if the discussion is aimed to illustrate just how advanced your toddler is/how wonderful you are, and not actually to discuss dinner options.

I am going to safely assume you are just discussing dinner with your child - that's a great chat to have, they are involved/engaged/entertained, feel cared for/interacted with, and learn age appropriate useful info/random facts along the way!

I do think there is some truth to what you’re saying OP. I don’t know if I’d go as far as hate but I think there is definitely less tolerance now.

I think the cities thing could be true, I live in a city but grew up in a small town and there is a difference.

There is 100% very little tolerance for SEN. I have 2 children with ADHD and autism. My son has really bad sensory issues and on the occasions he’s had meltdowns in public (too bright, too loud etc) the comments and looks we’ve had are horrific. I think some people see kids upset in public and presume it’s a tantrum.

The comments saying about the idealised ‘quiet’, ‘well behaved’, ‘out of the way’ child are a bit ridiculous and I’m wondering if some people think children should be raised in a dictatorship. Even the most well behaved children won’t behave perfectly all the time and will have their off days. Just because you happen to catch them on one of these doesn’t mean that’s the way they always are.

The well behaved French child is also a myth, at least from my experience holidaying in France. You see loads of French children running riot. I’ve also seen countless parents smacking their kids over there so maybe that has something to do with the ‘perfectly behaved’ ones…

@UsernameCreater @Elastica23

Yes, absolutely the ‘performance parenting’ thing - people definitely see it as a bit weird and somehow ‘fake’ if you’re pointing things out to your preschooler or asking them their opinion about something, but things like this form a vital part of natural language/cognitive development.

Impossible to state something like this without being accused of bragging, but DD5 has a vocabulary far beyond her years and her advanced language skills are frequently commented on by other parents and teachers at her school. Many of her peers, meanwhile, still struggle to form sentences and the school is having to have a huge push on speech and language and oracy, spending money on additional training etc.

But it’s not rocket science, and DD isn’t a genius - all I did was talk to her constantly when she was little, take time to respond to her questions, point things out in the park (naming flowers and animals etc), avoid excessive screen use and make sure she was facing me in her buggy in the early years. That this is all now considered OTT and weird parenting is a sad indictment of where society currently is.

I agree with your point about there being a growing divide between those who view 'the family' and by extension children as an important part of society/life worthy or support and additional help and those that believe children are optional and something many want to opt out of.

The demands on parents are ever increasing and I think it is becoming harder and harder to raise children. This is for financial reasons as both parents are expected to work more and more hours taking them away from the family but also the requirements and expectations placed upon parents seems to grow exponentially. Parents are expected to support children's education and general wellbeing in a way that simply wasn't considered when I was a child. Understandably many parents want and need society to support them whilst they are in the parenting trenches and feel extremely stretched. You really rely on people being tolerant and kind during this phase of life and this should come with the understanding that once you have emerged from this time then you will extend the same grace to the next generation.

It is obviously a much tougher sell for the childfree who can feel that it is a never ending expectation that they give way to families and support them getting preferential treatment whilst they don't get anything back. Of course it is more likely that you have less empathy for parents when you haven't been in that situation yourself and don't understand how hard it can be. There is also an element of 'children are a choice' so like all choices in life, people are expected to accept the consequences without looking for others to bail them out.

I love children!

I don't have kids (by choice) and this often leads to people saying "Oh so you must hate kids," which is very far from the truth. There's a primary school at the end of the street and most of the kids are polite and well-behaved most of the time, and I always say hello/ let them pet my dog if parents say it's okay.

I've actually had more trouble with the parents who will congregate don't the pavement blocking access to my gate and will not budge an inch so that I can get in/out when I need to, and I know they often block the drive of my elderly neighbour with MS too despite being asked (very politely) not too because they need regular access.

The only time I get annoyed is when I'm at a cafe and some kids are allowed to run riot to the point they're knocking into waitresses carrying hot coffee while the parents either ignore or get annoyed at the poor waitresses! I'm not keen on kids in pubs in the evening either, but if I choose wisely that's a rarity.

I think it's a very fine line sometimes - a posher accent or a louder voice would sound more performance-parenty to some, I guess? Not that I have either!

I hate the term ‘performance parenting’. I recall on here someone saying they were so annoyed with a woman getting her child to calculate the change he would receive from a purchase that she walked out of the shop. How utterly precious and immature? Teaching children is part of life. Talking to them like you would another person in certain situations, asking their opinion on things, giving them ‘grown up’ responsibilities are all things that help form well rounded adults.

I know people say that it’s when parents ask their child if they’d prefer caviar or truffles for dinner, but that doesn’t bother me either because I’m not an insecure mother. I don’t care if their child does or doesn’t like those things, or if your child was running at 3 months or had a degree in quantum physics at 3 years and I don’t care if you want to show off about it in the supermarket! It is possible to ignore that sort of thing and not storm off out of a shop like a toddler having a tantrum - then whinge about toddler tantrums 😂

@Bumpitybumper

Re the "both parents have to work" - I'm from the continent, and where I'm from, and all other countries I've visited there (not all but most), there's no concept of SAHM.

In my country and neighbouring countries, I can say that was also the case in my mother's generation, and my grandmothers' generation.

If you have a look at a different thread of a British poster living on the continent, local people there expect her to have her children in childcare (state provided and free) full time, as they do - because the local people don't have the SAHM concept.
Other British people on that thread are confirming that being the case in various other European countries.