To think the Labour Party has lost its mind..

[Certainfailure]

Absolutely fuming with some of the clowns in the Labour Party.
25 points ahead of the Conservatives in the opinion polls.
Starmer slowly making the party electable and moving away from the reputation of the party being a left wing student activist group and terrorist supporters. The next GE theirs to lose.
And now word on the grapevine is that 40 odd MPs are ready to resign from the front bench because of they disagree with Starmer’s stance on a ceasefire. Quite a few labour councillors have already resigned from the party and now stand as independents. Big names like Rayner and Burnham have already stuck their oars in too.
Really cannot believe that a conflict thousands of miles away, albeit tragic, has now assumed more importance than the frightful state of the country. That these people are quite happy to throw away the progress that’s been made electorally for the sake of a frankly almost unsolvable conflict that’s lasted 70 plus years and is incredibly complex whilst the country is rapidly falling apart and in desperate need of change.
If Starmer resigns over this, no way will I ever vote Labour again and I say this as a life long labour voter for the last 35 years. Thought we’d seen the last of Corbyn and his vote losing influence but nope, there he is, with his little pet project, destined to scupper yet another GE for Labour. Anyone feel the same way ?

Israel has repeatedly stated things that indicate complete ethnic cleaning including genocide of all Palestinians. I am a bit shocked you are not aware of this. I heard and read it constantly when I lived there, and it’s still going on today during this latest surge in warfare.

The hate and constant unrest was why I left to come back to the U.K. I didn’t feel it was a safe place to raise a family as a Jewish woman. But it’s not just Jews that are not safe there, it is everyone that is not safe. The tension and fear are something you live with daily.

So do you think that trying to talk sense into two warring factions to stop ongoing massacres is pointless then? That there is no place for the world to try and get diplomacy to work?

Your attitude seems very fatalistic and uncaring. It’s like you think the killing can just rage because Hamas and Israel have said a few times they’re not interested in a ceasefire despite other times indicating that they are willing to consider a ceasefire and in the past they have agreed to ceasefires.

You cannot talk sense into a group that commits vile acts of brutal sexual violence against women and children (not only violent rapists but violent paedophiles with it--good to know how many actual paedophile 'freedom fighter' defenders there are right here on MN btw) and think that what they are doing is their divine and god-given right. They are ideologically in a different universe to the average human being. Hamas and their ilk can and will do the same elsewhere if given half the chance. They don't give a flying fuck about your special western ideals. You and I and anyone else not on board with their religious bullshit is an enemy to be brutally murdered in cold blood.

The magical 'we can fix them with our clever reasoning, oh and then they'll be totally on board with the gays and the womens' thinking that's happening in Europe and North America in response to these atrocities is astounding.

What's happening to Palestinians is entirely down to Hamas choosing to use their own people as human shields. Yet again.

@Clavinova Lol. Don’t think they’ll vote Tory either. But then neither will most of the blue wall.

Certainfailure
Lol.

I doubt Labour HQ are laughing at the survey results in the Independent link:

How Muslims voted in 2019 election (%)
Labour 71%

How Muslim voters would choose if an election were tomorrow
Labour 4.9%

It isn’t genocide. Genocide has a specific meaning, and what the IDF is doing is not genocide. A genocidal government would not integrate Palestinians into Israeli society and grant them citizenship. There is policy to destroy Hamas, not Palestinians as a group. While there may be extremists in Israel who want to achieve the latter, it is not government policy.

What is a genocidal organisation, however, is Hamas. It’s explicitly stated in the founding charter that their intention is to kill Jews (article 7: “The day of judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”). Article 13 rejects any compromise or peace until Israel is destroyed.

Militarily, targeted bombing is certainly ‘better’ than door-to-door CQB and urban warfare. They are targeting Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas has no regard for Palestinians civilians, and is happy to use them as shields and let them die for the optics.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-charts-that-show-keir-starmer-can-probably-afford-to-lose-muslim-voters-rfp8htp3c

There isn't going to he an election tomorrow though. It will be in a years' time probably. The point is, as a PP said, by SKS calling o a ceasefire, not one Palestinian child will he saved. He will lose more votes if he caves to a few councillors for the sake of empty words, because many more people will see them for what they are. Pandering to some Hard Left agitators and loudmouths . Those councillors should be working to make their Muslim constituents lives better in the UK. Muslim communities that are some of the most deprived groups in the country, with some of the poorest educational and health outcomes, but they would rather risk another 5 years of the Tories? Really? What good would that do to the people they are supposed to represent?

There isn't going to he an election tomorrow though. It will be in a years' time probably

Great news - suits me.

It’ll be interesting to see, if there is still a lot of anger by the time an election comes around and Labour still manages to win even if they lose a bunch of voters KS may decide he can afford to sideline pressure/special interest groups from within the party.

So how many seats would that affect? And who are they going to vote for? Because if they just don't vote, it will make no difference anyway. And tbh, I would prefer to have a political party that doesn't bow down to demands from religious groups.

notlucreziaborgia · Today 14:50

It isn’t genocide. Genocide has a specific meaning, and what the IDF is doing is not genocide.

Well, you can repeat Israeli propaganda all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

International humanitarian and conflict lawyers have stated that the actions of Israel in Gaza do constitute genocide. What's your expertise in the subject? What are your qualifications?

A genocide, as you should know, does not have to include an entire population.

They say that they are not targetting civilians, but the figures dispute that. 70% civilian casualties indicates a deliberate and methodical targetting of civilians, even if the Israelis claim otherwise and blame Hamas for 1 ton Israeli bunker busters being dropped on blocks of flats.

Why else would they target all the bakeries? And during the morning, when many women were queueing up for bread? Can you honestly examine your conscience and say that it was a mistake to target at least a dozen bakeries thusly?

As for the Israelis not saying that they will carry out genocide, that's common sense; but on the other hand, actions speak louder than words.

And Israel Government figures have advocated mass murder of Palestinians in the recent past. Avigdor Lieberman wanted Israeli Arabs murdered, if they wouldn't swear allegiance to Israel.

He offered to have them driven up to the Dead Sea and to tie rocks round the necks of the first ten thousand.

(No, I'm not trying to say that that is Israeli Government policy, much less that many Israeli Jews support such horror, either; just that there are hate-filled, homicidal maniacs on both sides).

And plenty have stood up and said it’s not.

It’s laughable that anything said about Hamas, who are loudly and proudly genocidal, is met with ‘bUt IsRaEl’. As if genocide is only a problem if you believe the Israelis are committing it.

You can condemn the actions of Israel without mislabelling what they are doing as genocide. It isn’t. Genocide is explicitly a government policy to wipe out a national, racial or ethnic group. Statements made by extremist politicians are distinct from actual government policy.

Israel is acting to wipe out Hamas, not Palestinians. It’s Hamas that would rather Palestinians stay and die than allow them to move to safety.

But in in wiping out Hamas - which I totally understand and agree with - they don't mind if they have to shoot and kill 100 women and children to get one Hamas man.

If you don't see that as a problem, there's something very wrong.

And as others have said, we know what Hamas are and expect them to be barbaric, they admit and even brag about it. Israel does one thing and says all the right stuff, so as not to frighten the horses and then acts in a barbaric way and blames its victims.

Israel likes to present itself as this nice, moral democracy, but acts like some medieval tyrant. They claim to have the world's most moral army, but its snipers shoot children in the head, troops hold boys down and break their arms, legs, then lock them away without trial, or representation.

As I said, actions speak louder than words.

As for the genocide aspect, you can disagree all you like, but the fact is, people who are eminently qualified to assess it as such have done so. It's not just me and other random bods online, we're repeating what has been reported on.

I wish it was 100. It's closer to 1000 for each member of Hamas they have apparently killed. The human price has been immense.

And there are plenty of eminently qualified people saying it isn’t. Those opinions don’t count I see.

The Palestinian population has quadrupled since Israel was established. That alone doesn’t exactly suggest a genocidal policy. Nor does the integration of Arab-Israelis.

Civilian casualties are an unfortunate consequence of war. Legally, there is a difference between targeting civilians, and civilians being killed as a consequence of military action against the intended target. Intent is key here, not outcome. The actions of individual soldiers do not define the actions of the military at large, or the policy that guides them.

Israel may indeed have committed crimes here, incidentally, but that doesn’t mean they’ve committed genocide.

And there are plenty of eminently qualified people saying it isn’t. Those opinions don’t count I see.

Not really, because they're very much in the minority. Do you think that smoking doesn't cause cancer? If not, why not? Some experts say it doesn't.

LMFAO! No, no they’re not. Please show me where there is international consensus that Israel is committing genocide.

It is sad that this conflict has been hijacked by the far left. If anyone thinks that those protesting or getting involved in this from the Labour side are doing it because they have some new found interest in peace in the Middle East, you are naive. This is an attempt by Marxists to pick a side and use them as a shield to play politics. First BLM, now this.

LMFAO! No, no they’re not. Please show me where there is international consensus that Israel is committing genocide.

There is a large body of top tier humanitarian and conflict lawyers, working for organisations like the Red Cross, WHO etc, who are the experts, who say that it does meet the criteria for genocide.

Disagree all you like, but it's a fact, even if you want ignore it and pretend it's not true. Israel is a brutal colonialist oppressor.

And yes, Hamas are brutal degenerates.

It's interesting that some people can see the faults of both sides, but others cannot, isn't it?

I’m not looking for ‘a large body’, I am looking for international consensus. Aka majority opinion which you stated exists.

It is sad that this conflict has been hijacked by the far left.

Other than the far left nobody has given a fuck about Palestinians for 75 years.

And where has that got any of them? Nowhere. Because they are so concerned about Palestine it looks like they couldn't care less about any conflict that does not involve Jews. And that they couldnt care less about anything happening closer to home because they have an obsession with Palestine.The Far Left think that the ME would be form some kind of Socialist Utopia without Israel, when Islamists are basically Far Right Fascisits. Before Netenyahu, Israel, with it's Kibbutz systems was an early blueprint for communist living.

I’m not looking for ‘a large body’, I am looking for international consensus. Aka majority opinion which you stated exists.

You could try reading some mainstream news, as I did. Hell, even the Daily Mail has mentioned it.

The opinions of individuals reported by the Daily Mail does not constitute international consensus of genocide. As you well know.