To not pay school attendance fine?

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And what happens if I don’t. There is no statutory right to appeal.

i submitted an ‘exceptional leave request’ first week of September, requesting 5 days leave for my 6YO and 8YO daughters. We are in India this week participating in Diwali and the religious functions that lead up to it. It’s not the same in our area the U.K. and we wanted the kids to fully experience their cultural traditions at an age where they wouldn’t miss too much at school, with family and friends that live in India.

the head was meant to respond to let us know whether or not the absence would be authorised and give reasons. We didn’t hear anything and then chased up a few weeks before half term, but no response.

today we got the standard ‘why have your kids not in school email’, which I responded to and finally got confirmation that the absence has not been agreed and so will be unauthorised. No reason given other than they see it as a family holiday.

in our area it’s an automatic fine by the LA if we take kids out for 5 days. I’m a bit annoyed at the lack of communication from the school. We can’t control that Diwali is in term time, it’s only 5 days and this is really important to us as a family.

what would happen if I don’t pay the fines (it’s more the principle that I don’t think we should have to).

in terms of missing education - kids attendance is 100% otherwise and both are greater depth so I do think this week in India is a better experience for them than any impact of missing 5 days of primary school.

Quite right,an important part of who you are ,an education.

I think it's ridiculous how strict some authorities in England are with taking a few days out in term time. Here in Wales at our local primary, loads of families do term time holidays. The school always authorise it if your child's attendance is overall good and that's just for holidays, so something like diwali would definitely have been authorised.

Ah, so it’s NOT that important then? Or do you mean primary school isn't that important?

I think it's really bad of the school not to respond to OP's original request, even if it was a decline. And then not to respond a second time when OP chased it up. The head must be very disorganised. Strange indeed

NB the paperwork for a fine is not normally completed and sent to the Local Authority until straight after you get back, as the school will not know until then exactly how much time you will actually be away for (parents often lie about the duration of a holiday, or, eg, take a few extra days off “to recover from jetlag”). Once it is in the hands of the LA, it’s really too late to query it, as I am not aware of any Local Authorities that use their discretion to drop a fine for unauthorised absences that has been referred to them and they generally refuse to let schools withdraw the paperwork once submitted.

Pay the fine and then go to the local paper saying they refused time off for religious celebrations. They won’t refuse again

I think that your points are valid. You should be able to choose how to raise your own children and 5 days isn’t the end of the world at their age.

it is poor form, that your head did not respond. Did you chase the head, or the teacher? Do you have an email trail to prove it? What’s the policy at the school / LA, in terms of the turnaround time for acceptance or rejection of a request?

in this situation, your children are getting poor messages and lessons, sadly. Firstly, their religion is not valued by the school. Secondly, you’ve disrespected the school/ Head’s authority.

the school could argue that they’d have to issue holidays to multiple faith groups, each time, if they offer it to you.

I don’t think that you have a leg to stand on, unfortunately. The fact of it is that the school said no, eventually. You went away without the sign off.

Yes they will refuse again.

I’m a Magistrate and I have sat in courts when the LA apply to double non attendance fines due to non-payment of the first penalty. (Admittedly, since Covid I haven’t sat in one of those courts - not sure if that is just coincidence or if our LA is a lot more reluctant to pursue non-payment cases since Covid).

Every time I sat in one of those courts, no parent ever attended to argue against their original fine. I always found it really surprising. I imagine there are really good/valid/justifiable reasons why parents take their children out of school (like yours) and therefore they refused to pay the original fine on principle. But then, why not attend the hearing to explain that reason? Otherwise Magistrates have no info to go on and we would then agree with the LA’s application to double the fine.

If you decide not to pay the fine and you get notified that the LA are prosecuting - please attend and present your reasons. I’d imagine you’d find the Magistrates to be understanding and dismiss the case.

This fine thing is outrageous, put in place to discourage people who didnt bother getting their kids in to regular education and now just focussing on anyone daring to take more than 5 days off if they admit its a holiday. Simple answer is to catch a sickness bug and be off for a week if you want to go but dont want a fine. For children with good attendance and an educational experience, there really is no excuse for these fines. Apparently the head has to refer any absence like this to the LA. My friend had her kids off last May and was threatened with a fine but so far none has materialised. My own adult children had time off when they were in primary with no issue and all have good jobs and degrees so it didnt hold them back. Its just the nanny state dictating but failing to focus on the real issue of persistant absenteeism and absconding from school. Id probably also pay now but next time have a sicky

They probably dont attend because its embarrassing. A private 1 to 1 chat would probably demonstrate the reason but if u then get it confirmed its infuriating and embarrassing. Most of us wouldnt want to have to go to court for anything never mind this and most of us shouldnt have to. Focus needs to be made where the problem is, not on high attending kids on an educational trip

Yes per parent even when 1 parent had no say in the trip! Its a joke really.

Sorry, but aren’t Magistrates required to apply the law rather than dismiss cases because they feel that they are unfair?

Ridiculous that you were fined for doing this but I think its easier to just pay the fine.

The same school no longer authorises trips like that though, because the discretion to do so was taken away from them

Not in law it hasn't.

Discretion rests with the HT, precisely so individual circumstances can be considered. (Though I do remember loads of threads on MN where posters were decrying that set up and wanting stringent national rules)

Diwali is a moveable feast. I think the HT could quite reasonably expect the major family trip to be made in one of the years where there is significant overlap with half-term to minimise time out of the classroom.

It's shit that they will most likely fine you and you weren't wrong to take them out! I bet they had a lovely experience which had great educational value, even if it's not acknowledged by the UK government. It's just another tax on parents, don't take it personally. If you don't pay it, they will take you to court eventually and you will have to pay even more.

If you want to make a protest you could ask to pay the fine in cash and take it to the council offices in small change (1ps & 2ps are only legal tender up to the value of 20p, so you'd have to pay it all in 5ps), though this would probably inconvenience the staff dealing with it, who also probably agree the fines are stupid but can't say it out loud.

I think that's unfair to say that parents of children with good attendance shouldn't be fined. Maybe the children with bad attendance might benefit from the holidays in term time (or any time) more than those with good attendance? Saying this as a parent of children with excellent attendance who took my children out of school for 10 (school) days as we couldn't get time off during the summer for a 2 week holiday. Pretty sure there are kids at my children's school with 'bad' attendance that would have appreciated it and learned more than my kids by missing 10 days of school for a holiday.

This is terrible when it is out of control of one of the parents!

I think you should have completed their form and simply left it at that instead of repeatedly chasing for an answer. I would have taken their non answer as a discreet ok to go. They cannot formally give you the go ahead for obvious reasons im sure but may have found a way to mark you on the register. Maybe code ‘R’. If you haven’t already explained about the personal reasons for doing it this year, it might be worth outlining.

Mmmm. One day we may depend on them not doing that. Being a judge protecting citizens against a failing state is a brave thing.

Don’t you all think it’s dreadful the the state gets to dictate what parents do with their kids?

What, like making sure children get an education?

Magistrates (with support and advice from a legal advisor) administer the law. In criminal or civil cases we listen to the prosecutor and any defence available. We work as a team and use sentencing guidelines, but dependent on the case we can find guilty/not guilty, proved/not proved, just/unjust. That is why the LA has to come to the courts to ask for permission to increase the fine, as a penalty for non-payment. It is not a ‘done deal’. If we hear mitigating factors and a satisfactory defence, it may be that a bench might consider it reasonable to enforce the penalty, reduce the original fine or perhaps dismiss the original fine. As I said above - I have never seen that happen but no parent has ever attended a court that I have been in (or emailed court in advance) to explain the reasons for the original absence or the non-payment of the original fine.