To not pay school attendance fine?

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And what happens if I don’t. There is no statutory right to appeal.

i submitted an ‘exceptional leave request’ first week of September, requesting 5 days leave for my 6YO and 8YO daughters. We are in India this week participating in Diwali and the religious functions that lead up to it. It’s not the same in our area the U.K. and we wanted the kids to fully experience their cultural traditions at an age where they wouldn’t miss too much at school, with family and friends that live in India.

the head was meant to respond to let us know whether or not the absence would be authorised and give reasons. We didn’t hear anything and then chased up a few weeks before half term, but no response.

today we got the standard ‘why have your kids not in school email’, which I responded to and finally got confirmation that the absence has not been agreed and so will be unauthorised. No reason given other than they see it as a family holiday.

in our area it’s an automatic fine by the LA if we take kids out for 5 days. I’m a bit annoyed at the lack of communication from the school. We can’t control that Diwali is in term time, it’s only 5 days and this is really important to us as a family.

what would happen if I don’t pay the fines (it’s more the principle that I don’t think we should have to).

in terms of missing education - kids attendance is 100% otherwise and both are greater depth so I do think this week in India is a better experience for them than any impact of missing 5 days of primary school.

I have experience of this through a friend. The school were very clear with her - they were a big multicultural London primary and if they allowed children time off for religious festivals or visits home then this would quickly become abused, and children who needed school (perhaps with English as a second language) would miss too much school as lots of visits ended up being weeks long. The head understood my friends position (which was identical to yours), but explained that no exceptions could be made otherwise the floodgates would open.
Friend paid the fine.

You can be prosecuted, so I'd pay the fine. It doesn't make it right though, the lack of recognition for those who celebrate non-Christian holidays.

I had thought 10 sessions absence, so 5 days is the maximum absence before a fine. Does it vary by LA then? Or could it be affected by previous absences putting the DC over the threshold?

It's one of those where you have to decide as a family if the trip matters enough to risk the fine. In this situation, I personally would choose to go and accept the fine for the experience for my DC.

There is always the option to home school your child if you don’t agree with the rules around State education.

I don't think anyone is angry at the op or her reasons, I'm sure the children had a lot more enrichment in those 5 days than 2 weeks at school however she risks being prosecuted if she doesn't pay the fine.
I would pay it and then try to contest it rather then let it escalate.

It makes a difference because the school didn't respond to the request for authorisation until the children were already absent. It's not reasonable to ignore an authorisation request until it's too late and then fine. If the request was submitted in good time and using the appropriate contact method then what else was the OP to do? Go into the school, find the head and ask in person? That would be a ridiculous expectation. The process is the process, and if she complied with it then it isn't her fault the school was disorganised.

Of course, if the request was sent late or to the wrong address then that is a different matter, which is why I suggested checking the policy.

It's not like a fine for parking on double yellow lines, because that is never allowed. The school absence fines only apply if the absence isn't authorised, so there has to be a functioning system for requesting authorisation otherwise the whole thing is a nonsense.

The fines for non-attendance and "approved reasons" are a total joke.

Unfortunately, as I think I said on your other thread, they apply these blanket rules to try and get the most disadvantaged students to attend school somehow. It would be abhorrent for them to write it that only families with children most at risk of getting trapped into drug dealing/trafficking get fined, and they wouldn't afford them anyway, so everyone gets these pointless fines instead so the gov't can look like they are doing something.

On the flip side, you have idiots like one of my former year 11's parents, who rang me and told me to "reschedule" the boy's GCSE science exam (obviously exams cannot be rearranged, the whole point is everyone takes them at the same time for the same exam board) because she'd got a great deal on a trip to Egypt. At the time I was very in favour of fining people because he literally missed his GCSE science exam to go on holiday.

However, I don't like the way it's being enforced in a lot of situations where the absence wouldn't really make a difference to the child's education unless there was a persistent pattern of other absences too (which the fines don't cover, and is what we had the truant officers for back in the day).

When you consider that you can legally take time off work for things you'd get fined for taking a child out of school for, and a child doesn't choose to attend school, society makes them (yes they can be homeschooled but they have to have a parent who is open to it and who can facilitate this, and it's not like we generally ask kids to choose which they want to do), it's just a really horrible system all told and isn't getting parents to buy into the value of an education at all.

I hope someone abolishes the fines soon, they've been implemented really badly. I agree that children should attend some form of education, but I don't think these fines are having an effect on anyone other than a very narrow band of people (the squeezed middle) and I don't think they're improving attendance or making parents/children buy into the fact that education is worthwhile by pitting parents against headteachers like this.

We're literally encouraging presenteeism and I hope you manage to fight it, but if not, it's a small price to pay for the experience your children have had. 5 days for a trip to India for a religious festival seems very reasonable and I bet your kids learned more about culture and traditions than they ever could in a classroom.

But then, this is one big reason why I got out of teaching. I can't stand the enforcement of pointless inconsequential rules at the expense of sorting out things that really matter!

Its not worth the fight. I would just pay

Thanks all. I guess what I’m asking is if we don’t pay the £240 fine (as i don’t believe we should punished for this), what is the risk of prosecution, do they always prosecute those who won’t pay the fine or is it on a case by case basis. If they do prosecute, would I be able to argue/appeal my point at that stage? Obviously the financial risk is big, but is the risk low enough to say I’m not paying as a matter of principle.

i will also see if the school breached their own policy by not responding at all to the absence requests.

Nope. By following the application process OP was making sure that she had followed due process by asking for authorisation, and putting herself in the best possible position to have it authorised. But she was going to go regardless of the answer. She didn’t need to chase up the answer as it made no difference to her plans.

Agree, would just pay, it's not worth the hassle. Also, the fact that your DC are working at greater depth is irrelevant. It's not the case that the clever kids are allowed to take holidays in term time but the less bright ones aren't!

Just pay up.

It's not one rule for some but not for others.

According to the DfE Attendance policy, they could authorise a day. The problem is, Diwali is on Sunday 12th onwards for 5 days, but the OP has gone away THIS week. If I recall correctly from her previous thread about this, she said they were returning on Monday to the UK and would be back in school on Tuesday. I would presume that if the children had gone to India to celebrate Diwali when Diwali was actually taking place then the absence would have been authorised.

In your previous post on this matter I’m sure you said that you knew school hadn’t authorised it. Or have I misremembered?

It will, I think, cost you more if you don't pay the fine now.

Nope. That isn't how the law works. You can't base your judgement of reasonableness on your assumptions about what a person would have done if the administration had proceeded properly. It didn't, and so there is no reasonable basis for fining the OP.

If you parked on a street where there was supposed to be a double yellow line, but the line wasn't there because the street had just been resurfaced and the line hadn't been repainted yet, the fine would be invalid. It would be utterly silly to fine someone by reasoning along the lines you have:
"Nope. By looking at the road OP was making sure that she had followed due process by checking if parking was authorised, and putting herself in the best possible position to know if it was authorised. But she was going to park there regardless of the answer. She didn’t need to chase up the answer as it made no difference to her plans."

I don't think anyone is REALLY angry at all?

Merely pointing out that unfortunately it's a policy we either adhere to or pay the fine. Simple.

I do agree that school should have responded to the original request x 2 however

Am I right in thinking Diwali sometimes falls around half term? If so, is there any reason why you could not plan to take your family away then?

Hi OP

I have no issue with you taking your kids away for a week. I would be take away for a few days here and there and it certainly didn’t impact my education.

However, I do see the points of some previous posters that the school can’t start authorising this type of absence, otherwise there would be a lot of more absence.

I believe the general rule is that you get fined if it’s a week, so you should have expected to be fined. I understand you don’t feel you deserve to be punished, but they are the rules and I believe it’s more about the amount of time the kids were away.

I would definitely pay it, otherwise as others have said, it will likely go to court. There was a BBC news article I read some time ago now about a father who lost his appeal in court for taking one child away for a week as his 2 kids were in different schools with different term dates. As others have said, I feel the reality is that you don’t have a leg to stand on.

What are you hoping to achieve by not paying? You’ll end up even more out of pocket by arguing about it. If you want to challenge the system and/or this individual authorisation decision then do that but pay the fine first to stop costs from escalating. Nobody is going to interpret non-payment in itself as a protest.

I also think this is a shit message to send to kids

You might want to revise the principle of causation.

I took my daughter on holiday in sept. Asked for permission.. it wasn't granted. Took her anyway (bloody teacher strikes all the bloody time I don't give a shit.. my work means I can't take time in "holidays". I've not been fined; it's worth it anyway.. stupid teachers don't get to dictate to me not taking daughter on holiday! Alright for them masses of holidays every year. Most people get a couple of weeks.. not 10+

On that basis, it sounds like the school should at least authorise absence for Monday 13th, and could authorise more days at their discretion. Given that the children previously had 100% attendance and the cultural importance, I think my children's school would have authorised this. It certainly sounds more valuable than the week skiing my friend got authorised (she is Austrian, and included some vague arguments about the cultural significance of the trip).

I get why you've taken them and agree with you
And I get the school should have communicated with you but don't argue the toss with them just pay the fine and move on. It's the LA that fine you not the school anyway isn't it?