To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting

[VestaTilley]

Yes, really.

Surrogacy Concern broke the news on Friday night. I can’t actually believe it.

Over a month to come, the Scottish Govt are asking for egg and sperm donors as young as 18 to come forward in a series of targeted ads on social media and the radio. They’ve expanded IVF provision and - in their own words - have a supply and demand issue.

I’d heard of fertility clinics advertising (bad enough in my view) but for a national Govt to do this to women is staggering. Women can die from complications arising from OHSS, which can be caused by egg donation. A British woman died in 2006 as a result.

The ads don’t mention these risks; it’s all “be kind” “do something amazing”. I cannot actually believe a Govt could be this stupid. They’ve only just apologised for forced adoption!

AIBU?

Have a heart, yeah? 😆

Is that the new replacement for #bekind?

I'm reading a lot about prostitution on this thread. My views are ambivalent. On the one hand women who are seriously exploited by men who control them with drugs etc is abhorrent to the extreme. On the other hand well organised establishments providing a service which will always be around it remains to be said if the women are happy especially the so called high class escorts, who are we to judge their decisions in life. There are disabled people who have needs that would never be met in a loving relationship so in this respect they should never be shamed for paying for primal sexual satisfaction. I note there is no mention of male prostitutes. Are the feelings as strong for them from those who disagree with any form of paying for sexual services. Interesting.

[Putin] has explicitly attacked Lenin’s policy of federalism and autonomy which guarantees the rights of nations and nationalities.

Lenin made a policy of "Ukrainification" where Ukraine had a fair degree of autonomy and the Ukrainian language and culture were encouraged.

Stalin (who "tankies" are pretty much defined by their refusal to criticise) imposed a policy of "Russification" where Russian language was imposed on Ukraine. He then, in the 1930s, stole Ukraine's food to feed urban Russians and deliberately starved Ukrainians to death in a mass murder called the Holomodor. Putin is doing pretty near the same thing in his invasion that is clear land grab and resource theft that fails to be hidden behind the fig leaf of legitimate concerns about NATO.

I say "legitimate concerns" because I take the view that US expansionism via NATO and other means is not good for world peace. I can also completely understand why Ukraine would want to "buddy up" with the US to protect itself from Russia, given their experiences of the Holomodor.

Relevant to this thread's topic of female reproductive biology and the abuses and misuses of said: Russian soldiers are raping Ukrainian women and girls as deliberate genocide. By traumatising women so that they cannot face sex again, they cut off the supply of new Ukrainian citizens. This oppression is done to these women because of their sex. And women fleeing Ukraine to the UK were offered housing to be paid for with sexual intercourse, a form of prostitution, by British men.

Truth is the first casualty of war; women's rights are the second.

There are disabled people who have needs that would never be met in a loving relationship

No one has a right to sex. And no one ever mentions disabled women, the "disabled people" wanting sex are always men.

I note there is no mention of male prostitutes.

They are rare and their punters are gay men. Whilst it's still oppressive, the huge structural power imbalance that exists between men and women doesn't come into play in a male-male transaction.

It's not about whether the prostitutes are happy. It's about the male behaviour that we are saying is acceptable when we permit the purchase of sex.

If prostitution is OK, then these British guys who want Ukrainian women to flee war rapes in Ukraine only to then pay for their accommodation with sex did nothing wrong, yeah?

I say "legitimate concerns" because I take the view that US expansionism via NATO and other means is not good for world peace.

I'm also skeptical that Putin is at all caring about world peace. This is a land grab, make no mistake.

There are disabled people who have needs that would never be met in a loving relationship so in this respect they should never be shamed for paying for primal sexual satisfaction.

Are male prostitutes providing this service for disabled women? Let's just say I doubt it.

No one is entitled to sex. No one is entitled to women's bodies to service 'needs'.

Disabled people are a red herring here.
My country (central Europe) has a training and licensing for a job of intimacy assistants (some men do it as well). Majority of their work is about helping the disabled individuals or pairs to understand their body, pleasure, tools and help them became self-sufficient. Actual intercourse typically isn't involved.

Prostitution, surrogacy or egg donation aren't normal jobs. Considering them normal jobs would mean that the job center should recommend them to a job seeker.

I beg to disagree. Sexual frustration is at the heart of many mental health issues in both the male & female species. In this respect whether both species have a right to sex is not the question. The question is do the majority of people, including the disabled, have a right to relieve primal instincts by seeking those who wish to help & in turn paying for the privilege.

No, because of the behaviour that we greenlight when we permit this.

Put this another way: most people are open to having sex with a decent partner and plenty of opportunities to meet other people exist. If someone is chronically and unintentionally single, it's probably because they are not the decent partner that others are looking for. Why should a dodgy bloke who is not this decent partner be able to pay to override a woman's sense of danger, override her aversion to his lack of personal hygiene, override her disinterest if not outright disgust at him?

Look what happened to the victims of the Suffolk Strangler when their poverty drove them to ignore his red flags because they needed the cash.

If you aren't getting laid and it bothers you, have a long look at yourself because the problem is you.

Sexual frustration is at the heart of many mental health issues in both the male & female species.

And yet the mental health of those selling sex services is notoriously poor. So why aren't you factoring that in?

The right to 'relieve primal instincts' does not have to involve a person whom you have to pay for 'consent'.

My thoughts are being misconstrued. I initially said people who exploit women sexually are abhorrent to the extreme. In the case of two happily consenting adults giving comfort to each other whether mentally, physically or both is nobody else's business. If this is given & received as a service is up to those involved. As far as percentages of male & female prostitution is concerened, why is it numbers that count when evaluating rights & wrongs in society. One assault is no less serious than 10 to the victim.

If anyone wants to have their experiences of egg retrieval recorded Surrogacy Concern are collating testimonies; they can be anonymised. SC are on Twitter and their email address is easy to find.

If you’re angry about what’s happened I’d recommend emailing Scottish Cabinet Health Sec Michael Matheson MSP, and cc’ing Anas Sarwar MSP and Douglas Ross MSP to get them to ask questions in Holyrood.

Egg retrieval, the mere expression is enough to make people question this campaign 🤦‍♀️

Actively trying to prevent people accessing medical treatment. It's a good job you're all so proud of your lack of kindness and compassion.

"male and female species"?

No such thing. We're the same species.

One of the defining characteristics of a species is whether members of the group can interbreed with each other to produce fertile offspring. For example, horses and donkeys are different species- they can interbreed to produce offspring but those hybrid offspring are usually — although not always — infertile. Neither male humans nor female humans can be a species by themselves, any more than male cats and female cats.

You mean male and female sexes.

Biological subclasses of a sexual species if you want to be precise. Collectively as humans we are the male and female species 🤣

Male and female of the species, surely?

1. Your right to access medical treatment ends when it impacts on someone else's body.
2. Fertility treatment is not lifesaving medical treatment. No one is made ill by childlessness.

Your attempt to liken a principled objection to egg transference with denying someone an abortion or similar care is a disingenuous appeal to emotion in the hope that we'll stop thinking critically for long enough to be fooled. I see straight through it.

It's the #bekind thought-terminating cliché coming from entitled would-be parents instead of entitled gender dysphoric males.

@TheKeatingFive

Are male prostitutes providing this service for disabled women? Let's just say I doubt it.

No one is entitled to sex. No one is entitled to women's bodies to service 'needs'.

Yes, there are. I don't know why you think there wouldn't be? I've seen cases where disabled women had never felt a sexual touch, ever, so had never expressed their sexual side. Why shouldn't they? Men have an ability to separate sex from love; in these cases, the disabled women are able to do that, too. It can be very freeing.

Yes, there are. I don't know why you think there wouldn't be?

Because men have money to spend on prostitutes and women don't, thanks to the sexed wealth gap.

Because the sexed orgasm gap means that sex is far less likely to be enjoyable for women than men.

Because women risk pregnancy during sex and most wouldn't want a gigolo as their child's father.

Because the man could be a hazard to her, she has no way to vet him, and if he breached her boundaries there's no way in a million years that the police would take her rape report seriously because they'd see it as "she got what she paid for, what's she complaining about?“

No. We are adult males and adult females of the species Homo Sapiens. "Male and female species" makes as much sense as saying the "adult and child species"!

They pressure young women who have never had children before, preying on their female socialization to be kind. It's insidious. Once you have a child, the thought of your child out in the world, without you having any insight into their health or wellbeing - or even to see their face - is an unthinkable horror. They are messing w/ young people's heads to steal their children. I find it abhorrent.

A child born of egg donation is the child of the biological mother, ie the one who carries and gives birth, NOT the child of the egg donor. No children are being stolen. This is ludicrous.

Do any of you really think any of this will work? That you're going to turn back the clock on the march of reproductive medical technology, or of trans rights? You're getting yourselves all worked up but it's so futile. You live in the 21st century. Get over it.

My god. Do you believe any women ever have any agency at all?

Newsflash. Women have money. Women have organs. Women can prevent pregnancy. Women can make judgements about their own safety.

Your paternalism and condescension are breathtaking.

Your paternalism and condescension are breathtaking.

<snort-laughs>