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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting

1000 replies

VestaTilley · 05/11/2023 23:43

Yes, really.

Surrogacy Concern broke the news on Friday night. I can’t actually believe it.

Over a month to come, the Scottish Govt are asking for egg and sperm donors as young as 18 to come forward in a series of targeted ads on social media and the radio. They’ve expanded IVF provision and - in their own words - have a supply and demand issue.

I’d heard of fertility clinics advertising (bad enough in my view) but for a national Govt to do this to women is staggering. Women can die from complications arising from OHSS, which can be caused by egg donation. A British woman died in 2006 as a result.

The ads don’t mention these risks; it’s all “be kind” “do something amazing”. I cannot actually believe a Govt could be this stupid. They’ve only just apologised for forced adoption!

AIBU?

To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting
To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting
To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting
To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting
To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting
OP posts:
Thread gallery
41
PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:00

ArthurbellaScott · 08/11/2023 19:56

We are not talking about swimming. We are talking about men exposing their penises.

Having one somewhere you can see it if you choose to stare/catch it out of the corner of your eye is not the same as sexual aggression though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:03

She's not targeting you I she?

And I can't get over how naive you are about the motivations of many of these males. Lots of them only want into female spaces, because there are women in them, consenting or not, they don't care.

Sometimes because they are predatory or deliberately like to make women uncomfortable with boundary violations, sometimes because they simply see women as props to validate their sexist fantasy of whatever they think being a woman is about.

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:03

GailBlancheViola · 08/11/2023 19:53

I just resent you trying to exclude and other trans and non binary people.

And I resent you othering and denigrating women who do not agree with your Brave New World view, I resent you dismissing the very real need for women to have safety, privacy and dignity, I resent you attempting to force the exclusion of women who cannot or will not access spaces and services if there are male people in there. You put yourself forward as oh so inclusive and tolerant and you are anything but.

Keep fighting the 'gender critical' fight then. I'm not trying to stop you. I just disagree with you and hope the other side wins. I've no desire to silence you or curtail your political activity.

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:05

Having one somewhere you can see it if you choose to stare/catch it out of the corner of your eye is not the same as sexual aggression though.

It is indecent exposure. If they didn't say they were women there would be no question about it, would there? The penis is not wanted there by most women and most of these males know this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:07

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

It's not possible for a male to live as a woman, because he is a man. Also, what's "presenting as a woman". Sounds a bit stereotyped and "essentialist", no?

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:05

Having one somewhere you can see it if you choose to stare/catch it out of the corner of your eye is not the same as sexual aggression though.

It is indecent exposure. If they didn't say they were women there would be no question about it, would there? The penis is not wanted there by most women and most of these males know this.

You know perfectly well that the risk to transwomen in men's spaces is much higher than the risk from transwomen in women's spaces.

WearyAuldWumman · 08/11/2023 20:07

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:05

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

And yet they expect women to be comfortable seeing a biological male in a women's changing room?

ArthurbellaScott · 08/11/2023 20:08

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:05

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

So women just have to put up with unwanted penises in their spaces because some men don't feel comfortable in men's spaces. Got it.

nocoolnamesleft · 08/11/2023 20:08

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:05

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

How exactly does one live as a woman? The only way that I know I live as a woman is because my biology is female. I don't wear dresses, I don't wear makeup, I don't do spas, or love clothes shopping. But every month my biology reminds me that I am a woman. And men being shits is a problem for men to solve, it isn't a reason to invade women's safe spaces. That just makes those spaces unsafe for women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:09

Interesting that when males don't feel "safe or comfortable" in men's changing rooms they should be listened to while women are "pearl clutching Victorian matrons" when they say they don't feel safe or comfortable with strange men.

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:09

ArthurbellaScott · 08/11/2023 20:08

So women just have to put up with unwanted penises in their spaces because some men don't feel comfortable in men's spaces. Got it.

Actually, yes. That is what I think.

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:11

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:09

Interesting that when males don't feel "safe or comfortable" in men's changing rooms they should be listened to while women are "pearl clutching Victorian matrons" when they say they don't feel safe or comfortable with strange men.

Yes, because I believe that it is men, not trans women, who are the threat to women's safety.

I also believe that men behave better in mixed gendered environments, which is one argument for mixed facilities.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 08/11/2023 20:12

PP82 · 08/11/2023 19:38

To be allowed to adopt from abroad I'd still have to fulfil all the same criteria as I would to adopt domestically. For various reasons it's just not possible for us. It's almost impossible where we live. If it was, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Neither my husband or I are remotely bothered about the genetic link.

I loved being pregnant, and look forward to being so again, but I believe there are people who identify as men who also feel the same. However I would adopt if I could, rather than go through IVF.

I'm able to 'shop around' only because I live very close to another a country with laws I prefer with regard to egg donation.

I really appreciate your calm and factual answer as it was a deeply personal question and I struggled to find a way to word it that didn't sound somehow accusatory. I really hope yo so manage to have a child.

It sort of illustrates the point really in both directions I guess. I always had a female body but being "a woman" wasn't super significant to me until after I had kids. For some women it has been a big deal to them, either positively or negatively, since early girlhood. For some it's tied to stereotypically "female" virtues and characteristics, for others those things are 100% irrelevant.

So "woman" as a gender identity is not a coherent concept. The gotcha from the other direction is that neither are the various physical features ("what about infertility? What about intersex?"). Gender identity, being an internal perception that cannot be externally verified, is inherently at a disadvantage. But the very dimorphism of the biological argument seems to require it to bear out in every case, so is seem as just as unstable by those who would prefer to focus on the (rare, but nevertheless real) exceptions. I think it is indicative of the complexity of the wrangling that the terrible case of David Reimer is held up as an example of the rightness of their view by both sides.

Which is why I kind of think it is less about telling trans people or women what they do or don't feel about their gender or their sex, but about the balance of risks.

So for example, while the gender dysphoria experienced by trans women prisoners housed in the male estate may be real, does it rise to the level of the risk to female prisoners of including male-bodied criminals in their cells and personal spaces, in an environment (prison) that is already extremely high risk, and is there any other way the dysphoria could be managed that does not expose women to that risk?

The use of the word "woman" in medical guidance to describe those who experience medical conditions exclusive to women (pregnancy, birth, cervical cancer, ovarian cysts) may risk trans men feeling dysphoria, but is that risk as high as the risk of alienating the cis majority (e.g. those with literacy or learning difficulties, or whose native language doesn't accommodate neologisms like "people with a cervix", making comprehension difficult) and impeding their access to appropriate health care?

And the ubiquitous toilet/changing room question - is there a way of protecting both trans people and women from the fear of male violence in enclosed/private spaces? (Spoiler there is - single unisex cubicles, which are appearing in more and more places and while it means dealing with a lot more piss on the seats is not contested by the vast majority of women, and would also help with the problem of parents, male and female, out alone with opposite sex children).

Pronouns? No brainer, call people what they want to be called, but compelling pronoun declaration is completely invasive.

I wish these conversations could be productively had, rather than "TWAW, no debate" being the hard line at the very beginning of the discussion. I also wish some attention could be given to the astonishing explosion of trans-identifying natal girls in adolescence, especially those with autism, as this is a very odd development in terms of the sheer numbers (if any other condition had ballooned in the same way it would be major news and tons of research money would be going into understanding the cause). But all the oxygen in the room seems to be taken up by trans women, toilets, and whether a man with a beard and a penis who calls himself Tiffany should be able to insist on an intimate wax from an immigrant woman working alone in her home, and be able to sue her if she won't provide it.

GailBlancheViola · 08/11/2023 20:12

Or they live as a woman, present as a woman, and therefore don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms.

The only people who can live as women are those born female and make it to adulthood.

TW don't feel safe or comfortable in male changing rooms? Why is that then? Why are you othering males as being unsafe? Why are you accepting that TW can express and act on the fact that males are unsafe but women cannot, why are you so damn hypocritical? Anyway, I thought you were an advocate for no barriers on where people go, fully mixed and inclusive, everyone all in together no segregation of the sexes how does that fly with your TW don't feel safe with males?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:12

You know perfectly well that the risk to transwomen in men's spaces is much higher than the risk from transwomen in women's spaces.

I know nothing of the sort actually. Have you got the stats on attacks on MTFs in their own changing rooms? Are you saying male people are more violent? Women don't want them in ours either, we're not human shields. None of your arguments are remotely coherent or consistent.

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:13

nocoolnamesleft · 08/11/2023 20:08

How exactly does one live as a woman? The only way that I know I live as a woman is because my biology is female. I don't wear dresses, I don't wear makeup, I don't do spas, or love clothes shopping. But every month my biology reminds me that I am a woman. And men being shits is a problem for men to solve, it isn't a reason to invade women's safe spaces. That just makes those spaces unsafe for women.

You're a woman because you consider yourself to be one. As opposed to female, which is presumably a fact of your biology.

GailBlancheViola · 08/11/2023 20:13

You know perfectly well that the risk to transwomen in men's spaces is much higher than the risk from transwomen in women's spaces.

There is zero evidence anywhere for this statement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:14

Anyway, I thought you were an advocate for no barriers on where people go, fully mixed and inclusive, everyone all in together no segregation of the sexes how does that fly with your TW don't feel safe with males?

Very good point.

GailBlancheViola · 08/11/2023 20:14

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:09

Actually, yes. That is what I think.

I knew the misogyny would finally be admitted.

nocoolnamesleft · 08/11/2023 20:15

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:13

You're a woman because you consider yourself to be one. As opposed to female, which is presumably a fact of your biology.

I am a woman because I am an adult human female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 20:15

You're a woman because you consider yourself to be one. As opposed to female, which is presumably a fact of your biology.

Being a woman is simply what we call being a female adult human. No more, no less, despite what utter crap you've learnt from pomo idiots.

Catsmere · 08/11/2023 20:16

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:07

You know perfectly well that the risk to transwomen in men's spaces is much higher than the risk from transwomen in women's spaces.

It isn't, and if it were, why is it women's job to accept indecent exposure at least from men who demand to use our facilities? Why does the preference of a man who chooses to wear dresses trump the comfort and safety of every woman?

PP82 · 08/11/2023 20:16

I believe that all male environments encourage the expression of toxic masculinity. Men are far more likely to act in sexually aggressive ways in such environments. I believe this is social, not biological.

GailBlancheViola · 08/11/2023 20:17

Yes, because I believe that it is men, not trans women, who are the threat to women's safety.

Would you like us to list all the occasions where that is not the case?

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