Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

For 'broken and unhealed' read 'women who dare to assert boundaries, and men who really do not like hearing the word "no" coming from a woman'.

And if some women are 'broken and unhealed', what could possibly have broken them to the extent that using mixed-sex facilities might be traumatising to them? Any takers? Would it be other women, perchance?

(Spoiler alert: No).

The cubicle in the men’s was occupied which is why he resorted to the womens.

Is that meant to be some kind of 'gotchya?'

If so, it says far more about you.

I don't need to read it, I've lived it, worked on myself and lived to tell the tale. I don't need to be schooled in something in a way that is going to make me entrenched and bitter. I know how to assert boundaries but also how to coexist with men without insisting everyone colludes with my trauma and punishing all men many of those who did nothing to me for those who have.

Isn’t that when you just… wait your turn?

94% at most are not rapists, probably fewer.

We can’t treat all men as potential rapists and abusers just because the shitiest men do the shitiest things.

Actually we can and do, that's what single-sex spaces are for, a structural recognition of the threat that men as a class pose to women as a class. And we are expected to individually as well: just look at the "well she shouldn't have drunk so much" and other victim-blaming that a rape victim faces for treating the rapist as someone who should have been safe to get drunk around.

No. That reply was also intended as a response to your comment that a PP was 'disgusting' for having an extreme fear of men in places as a result of that experience.

I’m the one being called a pervert for stating the facts and my opinion on it. I’m a woman. The posters that have suggested I’m a troll with a fetish are trying to silence me.

Im a woman. A mother. A long time poster that has offered support to other women regularly. Who has received wonderful wisdom and support from the other women on this site over the years. My laundry had been darked on. I was amazed at the Mexican house thief. Im regularly offering words of support to a poster in the throes of a post traumatic response to rape but under a different name.

It’s not ok to just accuse posters of such horrible things with zero evidence. Just a feeling. It says a lot more about them than me.

I have not reported the posts yet as I’m seeing it as just absurd and am not remotely embarrassed, ashamed or emotionally impacted by it because it’s the extreme opposite of the truth.

But if we want this to be a safe site for women to post dilemmas then calling people names based on spurious information, in an attempt to silence them, is not the way to do it.

Self-preservation and asserting one's own boundaries are not indications of being 'entrenched and bitter'. They are common-sense self-preservation mechanisms. They'd be common-sense self-preservation mechanisms whether a person had a history of trauma or not.

However, numerous other women with traumatic histories have stated that they do, indeed, have issues with their boundaries being persistency overridden in this way. You do not have a veto over how these women respond to this situation. Other women are uncomfortable with it, and say 'no'. This should be an end of it, were it not that men are persistently the ones to ride roughshod over that very clear boundary.

Single sex lavatories are single sex for a reason, and are used by many women on that precise understanding. It isn't difficult. Statistically, the sex who overwhelmingly pose a threat to the other sex are men. And unfortunately, since they're not branded on their foreheads with the divine stigma of who is or isn't a threat, this means those single sex facilities are not for them. Otherwise they'd be mixed sex. Have a look at the statistics of the proliteration of sexual offenses in mixed-sex facilities as opposed to single.

And the ones constantly pushing at others' boundaries are opening all women up to this. Not least their young daughters. Is there a reason why it might be unsafe for a 4-YO kid to use single-sex facilities on her own?

Oh, yes. Because when those facilities are infiltrated by the other sex, they're no longer single sex.

OP is not part of the answer to that little conundrum. He's part of the problem.

Take you dd to the toilet earlier so she can wait her turn. Stop invading women's spaces.

I'm responding to your post alone.

I have no responsibility for what others may or may not have said.

are you campaigning for the abolition of all single sex spaces then?

Separate toilets for men and women were not created for that purpose to be fair. But that’s a moot point.

I’m pro safe spaces for women. As a woman who has been sexually assaulted in a public place by a man I feel passionately about women feeling safer.

I’m not saying men should be allowed in women’s toilets. I am saying that the OP did the right thing in this circumstance. His daughters toileting needs were the paramount need here.

He’s been called names, belittled and slated for doing what any good parent would. That’s not ok. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Our oppression as women and our mistreatment as women doesn’t mean we get to be shitty to all men. It’s misplaced anger. Most men are not rapists. My DH would have done the same as the OP. And that’s Ok.

No. It isn't.

Because other women are saying 'no'.

No I am not campaigning for the abolition of single sex spaces 🙄I am in favour of them in general and would feel uncomfortable in many situations with a male - generally unaccompanied in a women's changing rooms and toilets. I'm saying that there is a vast amount of difference between a dad rushing a young child to the loo to avert an unpleasant toilet situation for that child (hope that language is ok) to predatory males randomly going into ladies toilets and changing areas. We are talking about a parent trying to help a child. Some 4 year olds aren't able to reach and use adult sized facilities. And there is also a vast difference between a 4 year old who has just turned 4 and a 4 nearly 5 year old who may be used to going to toilet on her own at school and may be ok on her on in this situation.

do you refuse to use public women’s loos that have a ‘This toilet may be cleaned by a male attendant’ sign?

I look around for the attendant and wait until he's gone if he's male. Does it not occur to you that there's a notice warning me that he might be there because the management recognise that some women will be frightened by the presence of a man in a space that we expect to be female-only? That the management are giving us prior warning so that we don't get a nasty shock and can check for whether he's there before using the loo?

And I’m responding to yours. I’m correcting you that in this situation this isn’t a man shutting down a woman who has an opinion. It is women (as far as I know) shutting down another woman (me) by trying to shame me.

I think, sadly, that hating all men because of what a small (but unacceptably high) number of men do and treating all men like they are bad people is a sign of someone who hasn’t fully healed. And I feel really sad that so many women are left with trauma at the hands of men.

I hope that trauma can be healed and that they can have good men in their life that bring positive things. I have been lucky that despite having some truly awful men in my life at times, I have some amazing, giving, kind, compassionate men in my life that are gentle, funny and wise. And many women too of course.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/ Why did these women ask for separate toilets and not just demand access to the men's loos, other than for safety?

So what do you think the OP should have done?

Because that as the norm at the time. Your article is interesting but mentions nothing about safety. Just equality in terms of access to sanitation. Awful that we even had to fight for that basic right FFS!! But it’s a moot point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have toilets for women only. Just that in this instance the OP had no choice and to demonise him for it is ridiculous. He put his daughter first and I’d hope my DH would have done the same. If he’d allowed her to have an accident we’d all be calling him a shit dad!

Allow me to clarify. You are 'correcting' no one. AQA and Edexcel apparently have a shortage of examiners, if that kind of thing is your goal. This is a public internet forum, and if you post a view on these, it leaves that post open to discussion and challenge. That's how a discussion forum works.

I'm very willing to engage in discussion or challenge of anything I may have posted. I'm not about to be held to account for something I haven't.

I have disagreed with your opinion. I have not attempted to shame you or call you names. Therefore that large screed of text, although it may be very interesting, does not in any way apply to me.

I specifically took issue with your one point in that one post: the one about 'broken and unhealed' women. You've digressed from an answer with a large aside - which it's your right to do - but it's my right not to be pulled down into the mire of a terse exchange in which I've had no part.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Incidentally, your attitude to those you term 'broken and unhealed' women is seriously questionable and has distinctly unpleasant undertones.

Lot of adult women in this thread putting their feelings over the needs of a female child

That solution is on the OP.

Women are not support humans. It is not automatically our responsibility to fix the issues of the rest of the world. Despite what The Patriarchy may have told you.

Do you have children? Were you ever a child? We’re you born knowing when you need to go and using the toilet appropriately?

Babies are born without even any control over their eyes and arms! Being aware of when you need to go and learning to go at the right time are developmental processes. Sometimes the urge to go, can come on very quickly for us all. Especially children.

Tbh I wouldn't have cared less, I'd have just probably have waited til you'd gone before I started weeing 😆.
I can't remember where it is I went in the last year but they had fully unisex toilets, there were no mens or womens.
I wonder what all the absolutely appalled women on here would have done had they entered those particular toilets.