to think suits are inappropriate for sixth formers?

[allsfairin]

I have had children go to several different sixth forms, some require suits and ties for boys / matching tailored skirt and jacket for girls. Some have a much more relaxed dress code.

My niece is now attending a sixth form which requires her to wear the matching tailored jacket and skirt, and she bought quite an expensive one, but the skirt is deemed too short and she needs to buy another. These items of clothing cost a lot especially for girls, and she has to wear the same one every day, as she can't really afford two.

My son attended this school more than 10 years ago, and I was happy enough for him to conform to the suit rules then, particularly as boys can quite often pick up suits in second hand shops, so nothing like the expense. It was, and is, a great school, he did very well, and has gone on to a great career.

However, he has never worn a suit since the day he left school, and nor have my other children. It did seem a bit old fashioned ten years ago, but these days, suits seem to me to quite often be a long way from acceptable business wear, and in fact to denote low status in the work place, whereas successful individuals generally wear smart/casual, or even casual/casual.

Looking at my own adult children and their friends, I know successful young people in music, science, finance, event management, energy, engineering - not one ever wears a suit, or even owns one, I know that by the frantic whats apps about 9pm on the evening before an interview recently when a friend of a friend suddenly wondered if he should be attending his interview in a suit and was messaging everyone he knew to see if he could borrow one, and the answer was no, no one possessed one

So IABU to think the insistence on suits in sixth form is outdated and obsolete, and these days denotes low, rather than high status? I think quite a lot of teachers still wear them, and maybe politicians, but these seem to be the only areas of life where they are still quite common

Exactly. That's why the country I live in now doesn't allow uniforms, everyone, including children have a legal right to self-expression which means what clothes they wear, how they style their hair, that kind of thing, so schools can't control what they wear beyond safety reasons (like long hair tied back for PE and tech lessons)

My school 6th form didn't have uniforms, I didn't know of any 6th forms that had uniforms then (20 years ago). I assume there was some kind of dress code but I don't recall it. I did, however, wear a suit jacket a lot. It was a bit of a trend at the time. Sometimes I wore it inside out though à la the Fresh Prince

My four kids are all in their late 30s and in professional jobs, accounting, doctor, engineer and computer person. Non of them ever wear suits. Not even for interviews. They all look smart and professional

I don’t disagree in general but it’s not an absolute. One of mine works for a Big 4 and suits are not only expected but essentially you are ‘counselled’ as to suitable places to get them i.e. high end. A friends daughter works for a top tier law firm and must wear skirts as part of the suit plus a few other archaic ‘rules’ that they have now removed from paper but are still enforced if you don’t want to be sidelined/forced out. It boils down to choice, there would be thousands of finance and law places that don’t have such requirements but they don’t offer the same opportunity (or salary).
I’m medical but no longer patient facing and don’t wear a suit in general but need to do so for certain meetings, particularly with government. If I didn’t I would be the only one and would look ridiculous.

Should have clarified, I think making school kids wear suits to ‘prepare them for the workforce’ is silly and should be scrapped, it’s just the line that no professionals wear suits anymore is a bit misleading.

We’re not at sixth form stage yet but I was so shocked to learn that now in some sixth forms they need to wear business attire and stay in all day! They’re not even allowed out for free periods!

I think the examples you have posted are unusual. I have friends who are partners in the Big 4 and they don’t wear suits to work. My best friend is a partner in Magic Circle law firm and doesn’t wear a suit to work.
I work in a global firm in corporate finance - we don’t wear suits for work.

Allooetta
I've not seen that, but have heard it happening.
I think a lot is to do with the huge culture change in education.
Whereas students used to go to a range of destinations post 16, there's more intense spoon feeding and staff-led intervention in GCSE, meaning students get grades that make them eligible for 6th form that they wouldn't otherwise get.

The expectation of intervention and spoon feeding at A Level has grown in the last 10 years. Then there's the problem of unconditional offers, so by half way through Year 13 some students know that they don't have to work because they have a place.

Meanwhile the staff are expected to show progress from Year 11 even if the Year 11 result was a result of intense intervention and more work by staff than students.

I have friends in HE who are commenting on the knock on effect at undergraduate level.

It's a culture problem that's been growing for years.

My son opted for a trip to the races for his 21st birthday. His friends all opted to wear suits and they looked great . Guess we must be low status !

It's a uniform and by definition, not designed to denote any status. What's this obsession with this arcaich notion of status. High status certainly doesn't make you a better person
Just look at the people who rule our country. Nothing better than criminals. And all thanks to ' status'.

Meanwhile the staff are expected to show progress from Year 11 even if the Year 11 result was a result of intense intervention and more work by staff than students. How is that happening? I don't get how the staff working harder than a child works. Unconditional offers are now strongly discouraged, they were common before Covid but no longer - am I wrong?

Which Big 4 is that?! I work at one of them and never see suits. And it's not in the dress code. The legal world still does seem to wear them....

I think the "business attire" thing at 6th Form is ludicrous. As someone who has spent my entire career in professional and financial services, I haven't regularly worn a suit to work in well over a decade. I last wore a suit in 2018. I remember it as it was such an unusual event!

It’s a little embarrassing- it’s what people who have never actually worked in the City / high level finance think that people in those sectors wear. It’s like the people that think Russell brand is very intelligent because he uses long words or that Victoria Beckham was ever actually posh.

The fact is that the world of work is moving away from formal clothing and towards judging people on their performance at work, not on what they wear. 'Dress for your day' is often the rule, acknowledging that some situations require formal workwear but most do not. And we are all the better for it.

We have Dress for your day as our dress code. Am in reception waiting to go into a meeting - Big 4 accountants, lawyers etc - not a suit in sight.

The problem is if it takes wearing a suit for 2 years, to cover off on the "wearing a suit skill" - you're in big trouble - you aren't going anywhere near the magic circle or the big 4. In fact, I think you might be struggling with life in general. Schools would do better to spend a few minutes teaching their pupils how to present a typed letter - because that very basic skill seems to pass the majority of graduates by.

How is that happening? I don't get how the staff working harder than a child works. Unconditional offers are now strongly discouraged, they were common before Covid but no longer - am I wrong?

In my experience there's been a creep and shift in responsibility over time.

When I started teaching there was a dominant culture that teachers were expected to teach, students did their work.
This pattern started at Year 7 and went through to Year 11. It wasn't full on and intense at equal level through all years obviously, but when you taught Year 11 you'd run an after school revision session once a week and you'd get paid if you wanted to run an optional revision morning in the holidays. There was a lot of work on all sides but it was balanced and fair. You had the full range of effort from students, but it was accepted by students, parents and society that there was responsibility on students to work.

Now I'm planning my exit there's still the same proportion of students who work hard as when I started, but from Year 7 the culture is intervention after intervention, a Year 8 student arses around, doesn't do homework, doesn't revise for assessments etc and the teacher sits in a meeting being asked what they're doing about it. At GCSE many schools are now removing students from different option subjects if they're not on track for maths and English. I've known some students be given 3 hours of English or Maths a day, not due to SEN but because 4-5 years of poor behaviour means those students are going to affect the Progress 8 score. Some schools are adding additional periods at the end of the school day for Year 11s (not paid for staff and undoubtedly takes staff over directed time). The overwhelming narrative is "but what are YOU doing about it" even though everyone knows that the reason the student is only getting a 4, not a 7 is because he was hothoused for KS2 SATs, is more like a grade 5/6 student not a 7, and he has spent the last 4 years putting in very little effort.

They then get to A Level and we set, for example, an article to read before next lesson and you'll have the same students who work hard who do the work, but also a growing cohort who won't do it. There's students on A Level courses who, honestly, shouldn't be on them. They'd be better off on other post 16 courses because they're not interested in the required academic study and independent study.

We're starting to get in a situation where staff like me have to specifically tell some trainee teachers on postgraduate training routes that they should read the books they're about to teach because that's part of planning.

Edit to add - sorry that's long. It's a creep of culture change over a long time.

Free to choose a different 6th form

They're the rules

I fully agree. This is what people are saying about schools and what they do/don't teach. Writing a letter used to be part of English lessons/exams, like a non fiction comprehension. Now that seems to have been scrapped.

Actually teaching "literacy" in English lessons, i.e. formal writing, letters, etc. and returning to do comprehensions on non fiction passages , would be a much better use of school time than enforcing stupid uniform rules.

Funny how schools want to "prepare pupils for adult life" when it comes to uniforms (which is 50 years outdated anyway), but don't have the time to do basic life skills that would actually help people to get jobs!

That's assuming there is a different 6th form available.

Already many young people where I live leave school at 16 because they can't afford the travel to the school or college that offers the subjects they want. Add in having to buy expensive, unrealistic clothing and it's an extra barrier to education.

Yes, if you're in a city with different options. Not if you're in smaller towns etc with only one or two options, especially when both have a stupid uniform policy.

Same with the so-called "choice" of hospitals for treatments etc - brilliant if you're in a big city with several hospitals, but not if there's literally only one hospital covering your entire county!

There usually isn't an alternative option.

And the 'the rules are the rules' approach is stupid and dangerous. Rules need to flex with time. Rules need to be open to pragmatic challenge when they are no longer fit for purpose. If this does not happen, you get a population of sheep.

I think this sort of thing changes over time.

I was in VI form in the 1970s at a very good Sixth Form college. There was no real dress code and almost everyone wore jeans. The majority went on to Higher Education.

My DD was in her school VI form between 2012 and 2014 and the rule was business dress. Until a couple of years before jeans had been acceptable but, so we were told, the VI form themselves voted for the change in dress code. All the usual reasons were given about preparing for work etc, ignoring the fact that most of them would probably have at least 3 years at University first where they could wear whatever they want.

Ten years on I think that school still have the business dress rule and I agree it is getting less relevant. It is years since I worked anywhere that expected me to wear "business" dress,unless say, I was going to a meeting at a customer site.

DH most recent job expected suits when he first joined but gradually relaxed it's code and by the time he retired two years ago, even ties were no longer required. Chinos and a proper shirt was as smart as it got.

So on balance I think I agree. The only mitigation I can think of is that if they want some sort of compromise between ripped jeans and formal suit do they say "business casual" for example, that might be a lot harder to define and enforce.

Actually, they all write typed letters like they are trying to save paper. I know this seems like it's partially a lesson on Word but the paper world does not exist anymore in business.

Tiny font and squished up to the top, no border, no spacing between paragraphs. No consideration for spacing at all. Excessively formal or flowery poet language. Typos and spelling mistakes - in my feedback I've suggested some grads get Grammarly after counting in excess of 40 typos. Inappropriate use of flattery and an overblown sense of self - I suspect this comes from the American school of blowing your own trumpet - it doesn't sit well in the UK.

One of my friends taught English till recently and she says they teach the lower-level GCSE kids how to produce a typed letter but the higher-level GCSE kids are still taught on paper - it does them no favours...they think they are doing it correctly because that's what they've been taught at school but a typed letter has different rules.

So I think forget the suits - teach them how to write a covering letter or any letter - that's much more useful.

When my DD was in Yr 13 a couple of years ago her friend was sent home in the January (they would be on study leave for exams in the May) because her skirt was deemed too short. They then brought in new uniform code for 6th form (4 months before the yr 13 kids would be sitting exams) & basically forced a bunch of kids to buy clothes they'd probably never wear again. It was farcical tbh. My DD always wore trousers so she was fine. Bearing in mind a lot of girls in lower years were weating the actual school skirt very short too and that was fine apparently. A lot of yr 13 were 18 by this point so it just seems crazy to still be focusing on what they were wearing in the middle of their mock A Levels 🙄

Outdated. I work for an international Japanese company. 20 years ago we had a smart casual dress code in UK, then Europe. Then Japan decided they were going to go for a casual dress code 2 years ago, this in a country where older Japanese have never known anything but uber smart dress codes. It means as long as its not showing inappropriate body bits, ripped, dirty, rude etc the casual dress is fine. And tattoos, coloured hair, mohawks etc has never been an issue. I knew service managers going out to government customers. Customer didn't see issue with hair or tats either. They only cared if we were delivering what was expected and knew what we were doing. Even then with customer visits to site I never wore a full suit. The rest of the staff these days are allowed to stay casual and customers are just told our international dress code is casual. We one of top 3 in our field in Europe and top 5 in world.

what about all the actors who do perform roles as 1980s business people though?
Are you saying that none of the actors on, say, 'suits' were actually acting, because their costumes made it impossible to do expressive movement or physical work? That's the weird comment.

(maybe not the best example given the actual acting on suits but you know what I mean! most costumes aren't comfortable!)