Page 7 | Aibu to not refund this buyer?

Sellerseller1 · 2023-10-30T14:48:59+00:00

Have an online website selling handmade items. Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place. Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund. Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page. If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically). Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 31/10/2023 00:26

Ohnoooooooo · 30/10/2023 23:54

Buyer choose the postal option, buyer choose the 'safe' place and now you are possible out of pocket. I get why you would be annoyed. Frankly, I think if you end up needing to take the hit for this I would issue them a refund rather than redoing it as this may happen again.

Except there is nothing to say the buyer did choose the safe place (RM has a bad habit of doing that themselves) and the postal option is to protect the seller not the buyer - and the OP chose to allow non-signed for post.

justanothermanicmonday1 · 31/10/2023 00:43

I work in insurance and we get this constantly. Stolen items are only covered if they are locked in a safe and secure place and out of sight.

Tell him to jog on. Not your fault his safe place wasn't safe.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 31/10/2023 00:52

justanothermanicmonday1 · 31/10/2023 00:43

I work in insurance and we get this constantly. Stolen items are only covered if they are locked in a safe and secure place and out of sight.

Tell him to jog on. Not your fault his safe place wasn't safe.

And if he didn’t designate a safe place and it was the RM (acting as an agent of the seller) who chose to leave it somewhere vulnerable?

Legally that would be the OP (via her agent) who didn’t take proper care and she would be legally responsible for the loss.

Someone posted the link to the guidance that confirms this some pages back.

Mydogmybestfriend · 31/10/2023 02:26

Only the sender can raise a claim via royal mail not the buyer

urbanbuddha · 31/10/2023 03:21

I had this at the weekend.

As requested the seller marked the parcel in LARGE letters -

”RING ONLY BELL X AND DELIVER TO URBANBUDDHA”

Royal Mail texted instead (I was in) and said that they had delivered to my “safe place”. I eventually found my parcel three doors down at the top of the steps leading down to their meters.

I much prefer click and collect - never any problems with that.

X6hfyib4ms · 31/10/2023 03:25

My understanding with Royal mail that if you (as the parcel recipient) pick a safe place and they prove delivery then it disappears, then they take no further responsibility. You can opt out of the safe place and they will not deliver it and you have to re arrange delivery.

I think you can be sympathetic but ultimately it's their responsibility if they opted for delivery to a safe place and then it has been stolen, you have to know your neighbourhood and what is likely.

urbanbuddha · 31/10/2023 03:35

The problem is that Royal Mail just arbitrarily decide on the “safe place”. The recipient isn’t consulted. In my case they didn’t even bother to ring the bell - that’s not uncommon.
Once I’d calmed down, and after I’d fired off a furious complaint to Royal Mail, I figured they had delivered it to the wrong address because it was easier to pull in at that spot that day.

Mothership4two · 31/10/2023 03:57

According to royal mail website either person (buyer or seller) can make a claim, but they will only compensate one party. If both buyer and seller claim then the compensation will automatically go to the seller.

OP you could inform your customer that you will compensate when you have been compensated.

You need to find out if the customer nominated their safe space too as if they did then it is then that falls under their responsibility not yours.

Riola · 31/10/2023 04:05

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 23:28

Then complain because that is not their policy.

Also molly said USUALLY not always. Her reply is bang on as far as I’m concerned.

Show quote history

We know it’s not their policy, but it’s become a common practice hence we are saying it’s very possible it happened in this instance.

Well this isn’t really about whether we should complain or not - but yes I agree if you mean OP has to take it up with Royal Mail. Which is what most posters are saying. This is her legal responsibility IF the buyer didn’t choose the safe place from where it was taken.

Also molly said USUALLY not always. Her reply is bang on as far as I’m concerned

I didn’t address that poster, I was responding directly to your post saying in your experience you had to specify safe place for Royal Mail . My point is that’s great, but for many of us that’s not the case.

YireosDodeAver · 31/10/2023 04:10

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 14:59

Unfortunately I don't think royal mail will pay out their insurance if their tracking is saying delivered to the correct address.

I have responded and asked the buyer to contact royal mail and said that I will do so as well to show willing on my part to help.

I just don't know how I can be expected to refund or replace every item that someone just decides to tell me has been stolen, obviously I would if the tracking wasn't showing as delivered but how can I know its not a scam and what's to stop every other buyer just saying the same and getting a refund?

If you are selling valuable items then it's your responsibility as the seller to ensure that both the courier service you choose and the insurance cover level you pay for as part of the P&P is sufficient to cover things like this. If you failed to do that this time then it will be an expensive lesson to learn but you won't need to do it "every time" because in future you will have insurance in place and the courier will cover the cost.

The recipient cannot deal with Royal Mail/other couriers - you are the customer so you have to deal with the admin to make a claim against the courier. The item is your property and the courier's responsibility until it is in the customer's hands so the customer has not been stolen from, you have. The theft needs to be reported to police and in the event that it was actually stolen by the customer and they are lying, they will be guilty of fraud and liable to prosecution. However it's much more likely that the issue is that you didn't choose an appropriate delivery service for the item so you should bear the cost this time.

I bought a Dell computer online which was delivered to the "safe place" of the local convenience store, who promptly lost it. Dell had appropriate insurance in place and the courier service had to pay for a replacement but I wasn't responsible for having those conversations as it wasn't my responsibility to do so, it was a matter between Dell and the Courier that the courier had failed to fulfill their contract. That is how it is supposed to be.

Yabu.

Speedygonzales78 · 31/10/2023 05:12

When buying online I've seen "leave in a nominated safe place" being followed by "at your own risk" etc.
It's the buyers fault for allowing it to be left unattended.
Maybe add "at buyers own risk" to your website?

Namechange4234 · 31/10/2023 05:56

Ohmylovejune · 30/10/2023 22:54

I had this happen to me although I was in and don't believe it was ever left "in a safe place". No photo was ever provided by Yodel.

Ebay fell on side of seller as it was proved delivered.

I still completely disagree that leaving in a safe place decided by a driver and not designated by me, is delivered. Its not. My house fronts a busy road with plenty of passing strangers. I never note a safe place because I don't have one.

I don't buy off ebay now. Their buyer protection is worthless in my mind.

This

My safe place was apparently my neighbours shed (it wasn't and the item wasn't left there anyway)

I'll only buy from random sellers if I pay through PayPal as random sellers (eg not amazon or a large company) always try to get out of sending another product or refunding

And then these random sellers wonder why they get shit reviews

GRex · 31/10/2023 06:19

Require a signature next time if you aren't willing to deal with missing parcels. Our Royal Mail and Hermes delivery guys are regulars and know we have a parcel thief locally, so they only deliver direct or to a neighbour. Evri and Yodel chuck parcels anywhere; behind wet bins, under a bush, on the doorstep... Amazon vary between the two styles depending on whether they usually deliver or not. We've had some left on the doorstep but noted as "handed to resident" when you follow up to say the parcel isn't there. Unless the buyer begged for it to be left in a particular spot, you will have to refund if it's been taken.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 31/10/2023 06:35

Speedygonzales78 · 31/10/2023 05:12

When buying online I've seen "leave in a nominated safe place" being followed by "at your own risk" etc.
It's the buyers fault for allowing it to be left unattended.
Maybe add "at buyers own risk" to your website?

Except it’s not if RM are the ones to pick the so called safe place and the buyer did not choose for it to be left unattended (legally or morally).

https://www.comparethemarket.com/home-insurance/content/parcel-stolen/

Orange67 · 31/10/2023 06:42

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:39

Not in my experience, you have to specify with Royal Mail.

Show quote history

Your experience is the only correct experience then. Everyone who has had an issue with RM delivering their parcels to random places, please disregard all your experiences.

Timspam · 31/10/2023 06:49

This reminds me of years ago I worked at a well known department store on the watch counter. A couple came in and bought a fairly expensive watch, it was a metal
Strap so we removed a few links so it fitted correctly, they paid and off they went. A few weeks they came back in and said they had lost the watch and what must have happened is we didn't fit the links correctly and it's fallen off their wrist whilst on holiday! Management get involved and give them a new watch !! I still think to this day they burst out laughing when they got outside at their bare faced cheek and of course they now had two expensive watches for the price of one !

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 31/10/2023 06:57

Timspam · 31/10/2023 06:49

This reminds me of years ago I worked at a well known department store on the watch counter. A couple came in and bought a fairly expensive watch, it was a metal
Strap so we removed a few links so it fitted correctly, they paid and off they went. A few weeks they came back in and said they had lost the watch and what must have happened is we didn't fit the links correctly and it's fallen off their wrist whilst on holiday! Management get involved and give them a new watch !! I still think to this day they burst out laughing when they got outside at their bare faced cheek and of course they now had two expensive watches for the price of one !

Actually, it would be more like your shop leaving the watch on the wall outside the shop for the customers to collect out of hours then refusing to replace it when it was taken by someone else.

Birch101 · 31/10/2023 06:57

Well this is the crux just because the courier says it's was delivered to a 'safe space' does not mean the recipient actually has a designated one.
We do not have one and parcels are just left outside by door (ammoyingly) so Firstly need to know if they have set up a designated safe space with royal mail, if they have and it was stolen from there then that is there issue, however if they never actually nominated a safe space with royal mail then it's different

If you think you have been the victim of parcel theft, you can report it to police, but consumers are advised to also go through their retailer or delivery company. If you were asked to nominate a ‘safe place’ for the courier to leave your parcel and it’s then stolen, it’s your responsibility.

However, if you didn’t nominate anywhere, then it’s the retailer’s responsibility to refund or replace the stolen parcel.

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/read-this/parcel-theft-what-to-do-if-your-delivery-is-stolen-and-how-to-prevent-it-4221836

femfemlicious · 31/10/2023 07:07

Rosebud21 · 30/10/2023 15:06

Royal Mail's 'safe place' could mean left outside a front door, visible to anyone walking past. In my area, people on bicycles have been noted following delivery vans to steal items left outside a property. All the delivery services seem to do this 'safe place' delivery now, without the buyers authorisation. While writing this, Amazon left a delivery outside by my bins, with a 'sorry we missed you' note through my door, and an email to say it was posted through my letterbox. It wasn't. I'm at home, they didn't even knock on my door. You may be unreasonable

Edited

Yes happened to me with evidence. He left it inside the recycling bin, then put a folded up card through the letterboxwh8ch I missed and put a picture of the letterbox as proof of delivery...crazy

femfemlicious · 31/10/2023 07:08

Evri not evidence

electriclight · 31/10/2023 07:15

If customer designated a 'safe space' that did not end up being safe then that is on them.

If Royal Mail ignored the 'safe space' instruction and left it elsewhere, then you should be able to claim.

Whenever I have not received a parcel, I have had to wait for a replacement (not a refund) while the seller investigates. I think this is fair enough, so ignore their request for an immediate refund. As you say, lots of dishonest people around so you do need to investigate.

EasterIssland · 31/10/2023 07:26

Ive received emails from RM for a delivery as I knew I wouldn’t be home I changed the delivery date to another day that I knew I’d be home. Well RM still delivered it to a safe place (I’ve not got any and I live in a main road so quite a lot of walkers)🤦🏻‍♀️ I had this on Friday as well with DHL luckily this time it was left to my neighbour .

YireosDodeAver · 31/10/2023 07:37

If you don't have an appropriate safe place, or don't trust your neighbours not to nick stuff, Royal Mail can supply a "please return undelivered items to the delivery office" sticker for your letter box.

I have changed my mind slightly since reading through the thread. As the customer had the choice of paying more for a couriered signed-for delivery or less for a basic Royal Mail service and they chose the latter themselves, then their refund should be likited to whatever you end up being able to claim back from Royal Mail. You should still do the work of making the claim and if Royal Mail cough up the full value of the item then that should be passed on to the customer. If Royal Mail's Ts&Cs limit their liability to only refunding a lesser sum then it's ok for that to be what the customer gets because it was their choice to go for that service level.

EasterIssland · 31/10/2023 07:46

YireosDodeAver · 31/10/2023 07:37

If you don't have an appropriate safe place, or don't trust your neighbours not to nick stuff, Royal Mail can supply a "please return undelivered items to the delivery office" sticker for your letter box.

I have changed my mind slightly since reading through the thread. As the customer had the choice of paying more for a couriered signed-for delivery or less for a basic Royal Mail service and they chose the latter themselves, then their refund should be likited to whatever you end up being able to claim back from Royal Mail. You should still do the work of making the claim and if Royal Mail cough up the full value of the item then that should be passed on to the customer. If Royal Mail's Ts&Cs limit their liability to only refunding a lesser sum then it's ok for that to be what the customer gets because it was their choice to go for that service level.

Don’t think this is fair to the customer. The customer s bought something and chosen from the seller is offering. It’s up to the seller to provide the right amount of protection in the event of the item going missing. If there is difference then the seller has to be the one paying up the difference.

Meggie2008 · 31/10/2023 08:28

The "safe space" for the RM of late appears to be propped up against my front door. They've done it twice in the last two weeks, fortunately my neighbour saw them sat out and took them in.
It has also been slap bang in the middle of someone further up the streets back patio. Had to go merry hunt for that one!