Friends surrogacy

[Fatcat00]

Not a particularly close friend, but friend enough for me to be invited to social events etc. has recently told me she is having a baby due in April, I was shocked and congratulated her, she then says “surrogate… obviously”. I was a bit lost for words.

for context friend has recently divorced, they had been trying for a baby for 5 years, had IVF etc. I furthered the conversation and asked if it was her egg. Her response was “nah, I’m not bothered if it’s not my biological baby.. I just want a baby”. Followed by “I can’t be assed putting hormones into my body for the sake of my own egg”. I am just so shocked and speechless, I don’t agree with surrogacy for a number of reasons. Some of them being I don’t agree with the hiring of a woman’s body. I don’t agree with a baby being ripped away from its mother to suit someone else’s needs and the physical and psychological implications to both baby and mother as such. Why not just adopt?? If you don’t care for the child to be your biological anyway, why not adopt a baby who needs a parent?

it’s kind of made me look at her in a different light. She seemed very flippant about it (I’m aware this is just how she has came across I’m sure it’s a lengthy and draining process). She says she was put in touch with this woman through a friend who had used her.

essentially, this surrogate has just got pregnant for the purpose of handing over the baby to someone else in exchange for cash. I think I’d still be a bit 🤔 even if it was her own egg if truth be told.

I just can’t get my head around it. Am I being a bit of a bigot? Aibu to want to distance myself a bit? I don’t like feeling as though someone’s path to parenthood or happiness is “wrong” but it really doesn’t sit right with me and I’m not entirely sure why.

Of course there is a question as to when and whether “consent” is meaningful, and when and whether someone has “agreed” to something because they are desperate and they have no other choice. And there is of course a role for the law in protecting vulnerable people from the latter.
But it’s also dangerous and oppressive to be overly paternalistic about these things, and not prioritise the voices of those who are the ones actually undergoing and being affected by the issue. Do I think surrogacy needs to be regulated because there is potential for exploitation? Yes. Do I think having a baby for someone else is the same as selling an organ? No. Do I support kidney donation? Yes.
Do I think all surrogacy arrangements are inherently exploitative and wrong. No.
Listen to women affected by the issue talk about it , and what it means to them, before you judge.

Yup, agree with this.

I would be happy for it to be made illegal to receive money for being a surrogate, aside from expenses covered.

@LadyThatLaunches Well that currently is the case in the UK, as I understand it. But there are many voices saying that UK law on surrogacy needs to be 'modernised'. There's actually a piece on Netmums at the moment where a couple (male, gay think they were on some reality show, although I don't recognise the names) are saying this. They are also saying how unfair it is that lower income families are not able to access surrogacy. So it should be available on the NHS should it? That'll go down well with the current funding crisis that's happening. Or perhaps they think fertile women should be drafted in to help out or something like that. Shades of 'Handmaid's Tale'. But as long as the intended parents get what they want, that is their primary concern.

I would not like the UK to go down the road that the USA has, and for surrogacy to become completely normalised. Not saying that there are no happy stories, but the situation is ripe for exploitation of poorer women, often from poorer countries. And it is certainly not what the baby would want, if they could speak. The state should protect their best interests as obviously they cannot do so for themselves.

For those of you against surrogacy full stop, are you also against someone donating an organ?

In all fairness, how do you know that’s not what the baby would want? Again, so many big assumptions from a very paternalistic point of view.

Not really sure where the Handmaid's Tail comes into it, but I'd happily bear a child for my sister if she were unable to and I could.

the situation is ripe for exploitation of poorer women, often from poorer countries. And it is certainly not what the baby would want, if they could speak.

I'm not so sure tbh. Another 20 years and they might be trying to come here on a dingy so I don't think we can say that for sure.

@LadyThatLaunches not really sure what you mean with your point about dinghies, but the birth mother is the only familiar thing the baby knows from being inside her for 9 months. The sound of her voice etc. Comfort in the big scary outside world. The fourth trimester and all that. I thought this was widely recognised.

It is not a good thing in general to deliberately create babies to immediately remove them from the birth mother.

In some limited scenarios surrogacy might work well, for example a sister of the intended parent, as you mention, provided she is under no pressure and will continue a family relationship with the baby. It is a huge ask of any woman though.

I'm suggesting it's by no means a given that somebody from a poorer country wouldn't want to grow up here instead.

Well that's a hypothetical situation in 20 years time involving a hypothetical young adult But the newborn baby of right now knows nothing about what country they live in etc., they just want their mum.

Anyway if international surrogacy didnt exist then that person wouldn't exist at all.

The method of getting pregnant isn’t an ordinary and healthy physiological state. Many women get pregnant with lots of medical intervention which is ethically and morally fine. But let’s not act like being a surrogate is an “ordinary physiological state”.

Exactly. And I’d also give her a kidney. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Oh for goodness sake it’s ivf. Women can and do choose ivf every day. I did. It’s fab!

I think some of the people who are so against surrogacy are because they just can’t imagine being able to do it themselves. To them, the idea of doing it purely willingly seems impossible.

But everyone is different. Some people can’t imagine having children, others can’t imagine life without. For some people, being a surrogate is literally the most incredible thing you can do in your entire life. You get to be pregnant and go through birth and all through the altruism of doing it for someone else. It’s pretty incredible if that’s your thing. Plus you can relax and not work whilst going through it. This is what I know of Americans who do it anyway. They’re ex sahm who miss pregnancy so much and love helping someone else create life. Good on them.

Do I think surrogacy needs to be regulated because there is potential for exploitation? Yes.

Ok, so how do you propose to do this?

Do I think all surrogacy arrangements are inherently exploitative and wrong. No.
Listen to women affected by the issue talk about it , and what it means to them, before you judge.

Even if you can be sure the woman is doing it 100% freely, how do you protect her rights? Who gets to decide the decisions before, during and after the pregnancy? Like if she needs a CVS? Or it’s recommended she terminates for a severe abnormality? Or if she wants to for her own personal reasons? Or if she wants a vaginal delivery and the intended parents want a section? Who decides all these things?

When you say “talk to the women” you mean talk to the women who, by sheer luck, nothing went wrong. They didn’t develop major complications. They weren’t openly willing but died - this has happened. So even IF women freely choose to do it, whose rights get prioritised?

Whispers I don't see anything wrong with altruistic surrogacy.

Do you know the extent of the process a person has to go through to be living related kidney donor? It’s not just medical checks for compatibility, there are also extensive social and psychological checks to make sure you’re doing it for the right reasons. People want to donate because of family guilt, family pressure, coercion, or they need to be checked they have the capacity to truly understand the implications of what living with one kidney means, implications for if their own child needs one later but now they can’t, and so on, and so on. It’s a process that takes months and months.

There are no such checks with surrogacy. Why?

No- organs don’t have thoughts, feelings or human rights of their own…

But it’s also dangerous and oppressive to be overly paternalistic about these things

It’s not paternalistic to assume a woman providing a service for others with her body might be being exploited, given that is the default position of our society. Surrogacy is like sex work in that sense: the paternalistic attitude is “these women love it!” Sure they do mate🙄. The vast majority of surrogacy around the world is exploitative, so it’s not unreasonable to assume that every case is and really, seriously do a deep check to make sure it isn’t.

But the point is, no one checks.

And IF it’s determined that the woman presenting is 100% doing to freely, no one can explain how to make sure she won’t be exploited from that point on. No one pro-surrogacy can explain how they protect women from being coerced in their pregnancy decision-making, or their delivery choices, or health choices. There are surrogacy contracts that stipulate what the woman can and can’t eat, stopping her from having sex with her husband etc. This is coercion. No one pro-surrogacy has any idea how to protect women ongoing after the initial decision they consented to. What if they change their minds? About any of it?

Wtf are you on about?

Exactly. And this is why there is no such thing as successful surrogacy. Because even IF the woman consents freely, and even IF she has full control over her body, and even IF, by sheer luck there are no major complications to her or the baby, and even IF the relationship stays positive and is ended appropriately and amicably, even IF all that

there is still no way of knowing if the child will grow up and feel trauma or negative impact around the circumstances of their birth. Which could take decades.

Like the little girl I know who thinks one day she’ll get to travel to India to meet her mother. Life for her is lovely right now, she has two dads who love her. But at some point when she reaches a level of maturity there will be a realisation that she’s not going to meet her mum and will likely never know who she is.

I personally wouldn't agree with her choice or her attitude. It's obviously made you view her in a different light and you realise you have quite different ideas about an important issue. It's possible to disagree with people and still be civil to them on a personal basis, which you should, but ultimately it's up to you if you wish to remain friendly, you don't have to explain yourself to anyone.

Well then there should be.

My old colleague donated a kidney btw.

or you could see it as a positive that she is aware of her background and identity from a young age. I don’t know this situation and whether she can meet her surrogate mum. As a general rule I think the process should be much more regulated and surrogate and child have a chance to reconnect if they are not already in each other’s lives.