Friends surrogacy

[Fatcat00]

Not a particularly close friend, but friend enough for me to be invited to social events etc. has recently told me she is having a baby due in April, I was shocked and congratulated her, she then says “surrogate… obviously”. I was a bit lost for words.

for context friend has recently divorced, they had been trying for a baby for 5 years, had IVF etc. I furthered the conversation and asked if it was her egg. Her response was “nah, I’m not bothered if it’s not my biological baby.. I just want a baby”. Followed by “I can’t be assed putting hormones into my body for the sake of my own egg”. I am just so shocked and speechless, I don’t agree with surrogacy for a number of reasons. Some of them being I don’t agree with the hiring of a woman’s body. I don’t agree with a baby being ripped away from its mother to suit someone else’s needs and the physical and psychological implications to both baby and mother as such. Why not just adopt?? If you don’t care for the child to be your biological anyway, why not adopt a baby who needs a parent?

it’s kind of made me look at her in a different light. She seemed very flippant about it (I’m aware this is just how she has came across I’m sure it’s a lengthy and draining process). She says she was put in touch with this woman through a friend who had used her.

essentially, this surrogate has just got pregnant for the purpose of handing over the baby to someone else in exchange for cash. I think I’d still be a bit 🤔 even if it was her own egg if truth be told.

I just can’t get my head around it. Am I being a bit of a bigot? Aibu to want to distance myself a bit? I don’t like feeling as though someone’s path to parenthood or happiness is “wrong” but it really doesn’t sit right with me and I’m not entirely sure why.

It's human trafficking when you come down to it, so \i would have a hard time being supportive of the friend.

I think it's pretty shocking that the standards of care in adoption are completely ignored in surrogacy.

No one wanted to answer about that though and about if I’m a disgusting human being

I’ll answer it. You’re not a disgusting human being. You have paid for medical services to have your own child. What you have not done is:

• paid for the use of another woman’s body
• paid for someone else to go through the medical procedures required to provide you with a child
• paid money and been given the baby without any of the work.

If you go to a hardware shop and buy some wood and craft and build yourself a bookcase, have you bought a bookcase in the same way as buying one already built from a furniture shop?

If you want to talk expenses, if someone approached me wanting a child and wanted an 11 year old girl instead of a newborn, could I give them my DD and just charge expenses? Obviously it would be higher than a newborn because I’d calculate 11 years of raising her, but if someone had the money, would that be justifiable?

I agree there should be very high standards with surrogacy.

I don’t really get the bookcase example. Surely it doesn’t matter?

And with surrogacy it is very often the biological child of the person who ‘paid’ for surrogacy. Biology is actually very important for a lot of people, including the children.

I don’t really get the bookcase example. Surely it doesn’t matter?

Another example. If you bake a cake by mixing flour, eggs and sugar in a bowl and putting it in the oven for a period of time, have you bought a cake?

Have you bought a cake in the same way as going to a bakery and getting one from there?

The difference is you’re paying for the hard work of the baker who has used their own ingredients and effort to produce something for you to buy with appropriate remuneration for those ingredients and that effort, it has saved you from having to do it.

Only in surrogacy it’s a woman’s body that is used, her physical effort of pregnancy that is put in, and her health that is risked, and even her life that is risked.

The only way I’d even waver on surrogacy would be if surrogates were given at least 10 million pounds for the value placed on them and the risk they’re taking.

I already did answer it but @Ididivfama ignored my answer, presumably because it doesn’t fit with her narrative.

I enjoyed my first pregnancy. My second one not so much, with high blood pressure and various other issues. The child was worth it though.

Risking a pregnancy to give away a baby should not be done likely.
And as you were also for my above question about buying and selling kidneys, would you expect to be paid as a surrogate?

And very often (as in the case of the op’s friend here) it isn’t the commissioners biological child- so if biology is very important to the child, how do you get round that?

In this situation the the trauma to the child of being removed from it’s mother isn’t present- the baby wants it’s birth mother, it doesn’t know about the genetic intricacies.

The research I’ve read and my experience of donor born children shows that the biggest indicator of future harm to the child is if they aren’t brought up knowing they are born from a donor and don’t have the opportunity to find out about the donor in the future- your friend is planning to inform her child so that mitigates a lot of the issues.

Yes, it is still using a woman’s body- but many would argue to a much lesser extent. There is still the possible ethical issues around whether egg donation was truly altruistic (many egg donors do it because they couldn’t otherwise afford ivf treatment)-

I don’t know whether egg donation has the same commercial side as surrogacy ie, women from richer backgrounds buying from women from poorer backgrounds who are basically being used like a commodity- if so then it has the same ethical problems.

And the goods changing hands are not a human life- it is some cells that are regularly discarded as waste by women- for me that makes the biggest difference.

I did see it. Surely it’s just a spectrum of different methods and interventions used.

I don’t think your example really works. It’s not exactly the same is it. You don’t spend 11 years bonding with a newborn. It’s also not fair on a 11 year old whereas as I’ve pointed out, it can work with a newborn in their fourth trimester.

It’s ok to disagree on this. I’ve tried to look at studies and the main issues I can find are due to the baby not understanding their background and not having it talked about from a young age (like adoption). For a surrogate, there are higher levels of depression due to society’s treatment of the surrogate and social stigma. I will happily read and reputable, up to date study stating otherwise.

Im not so steadfast I’ll never to listen to any other information. I think there needs to be more in place to support all parties and I agree more research needs to be done on the matter.

The pro surrogacy arguments always come up short.

“If a woman wants to, she should be able to.” Ok, then explain how you’re going to ascertain and ensure that she really wants to and isn’t being coerced.

“Surrogacy is ok if the baby shares biology with the intended parents.” Ok, now explain how you’re going to enforce this.

”Surrogacy is ok if no money other than expenses is changed hands.” Ok, now explain how you’re going to enforce this. And explain what is covered under expenses. Death and lifetime disability?

”Surrogacy is ok if the child is going to a loving home.” Ok, explain how you’re going to safeguard children and make sure this happens, because currently there are no checks on intended parents so see if they will be the living home we would expect.

And so on, and so on.

No one can ever explain how they see it working with all areas of difficulty covered.

My friend said that the donors tended to be medical professionals (doctors, nurses, midwives) who understood the difficulties of fertility. She deliberately chose the UK despite the far fewer eggs available due to this. I don’t know though, in some ways you could argue it at less ethical because a woman could donate her eggs without giving it as much thought (imo) than you would to take on surrogacy.

This is kinda how I feel, although it gets a bit dodgier for me when people are only doing it for the money (especially if they're financially struggling and feel pressured). I believe that what a woman does with her body is her choice and her choice only.

Would you agree then with the woman being able to change her mind partway through?
If she decided once pregnant that she didn't want to do it and wanted to have an abortion?

I believe that what a woman does with her body is her choice and her choice only.

Ok, as I posted above, now explain how you will ensure she isn’t being coerced, or doing it out of guilt or desperation. If I wanted to donate a kidney to a sibling who needed one I would have to undergo extensive psychological assessment to ensure I was doing it genuinely freely. What do you propose to put in place to make sure women are genuinely doing it out of choice in order to prevent exploitation?

This is interesting-

On the vicissitudes of early primary surrogate mothering II: Loss of the surrogate mother and arrest of mourningHarry T Hardin, Daniel H Hardin
Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association 48 (4), 1229-1258, 2000

Also this

Adopted children: The risk of interactive misattunement between the infant and adoptive mother in the child relinquished at birthSheila B Honig
Adoption Quarterly 17 (3), 185-204, 2014

I don't know. It's not really my remit to rewrite the surrogacy legislation. However, the possibility of a good thing being abused doesn't IMO change the fact that the thing in question can still be a good thing.

For example, the fact that aid money which gets sent to Africa sometimes gets embezzled doesn't mean that trying to help Africans is wrong.

I believe that what a woman does with her body is her choice and her choice only.

Should she be allowed to sell a kidney then?

Kind of a false equivalency. Selling a kidney isn't really a natural process.

I’ve already posted about the differences with kidney selling. If you had multiple kidneys then yes.

How is surrogacy natural - unless you plan to give away a baby that was the result of having sex?

You can live a full and healthy life with 1 kidney. Why don’t we allow people to sell them? You can donate part of your liver too and live a fulfilled and healthy life. You also don’t need 2 full lungs.

IMO it’s completely incomparable. In the UK, a foetus has no legal rights and no legal recognition. The surrogate gives away a baby which has human rights at birth. Also you can’t pop along to a clinic and request a termination at 39 weeks because you’ve changed your mind; it’s highly regulated, unlike surrogacy.

its not the “side of the surrogate” though. You are presuming to speak for these women, instead of allowing them to speak for themselves.

I am not stopping anyone who wants to be a surrogate from speaking for themselves.
I may have missed it if there are any surrogates on this thread. I am genuinely interested in their reasons for wanting to do it.