Friends surrogacy

[Fatcat00]

Not a particularly close friend, but friend enough for me to be invited to social events etc. has recently told me she is having a baby due in April, I was shocked and congratulated her, she then says “surrogate… obviously”. I was a bit lost for words.

for context friend has recently divorced, they had been trying for a baby for 5 years, had IVF etc. I furthered the conversation and asked if it was her egg. Her response was “nah, I’m not bothered if it’s not my biological baby.. I just want a baby”. Followed by “I can’t be assed putting hormones into my body for the sake of my own egg”. I am just so shocked and speechless, I don’t agree with surrogacy for a number of reasons. Some of them being I don’t agree with the hiring of a woman’s body. I don’t agree with a baby being ripped away from its mother to suit someone else’s needs and the physical and psychological implications to both baby and mother as such. Why not just adopt?? If you don’t care for the child to be your biological anyway, why not adopt a baby who needs a parent?

it’s kind of made me look at her in a different light. She seemed very flippant about it (I’m aware this is just how she has came across I’m sure it’s a lengthy and draining process). She says she was put in touch with this woman through a friend who had used her.

essentially, this surrogate has just got pregnant for the purpose of handing over the baby to someone else in exchange for cash. I think I’d still be a bit 🤔 even if it was her own egg if truth be told.

I just can’t get my head around it. Am I being a bit of a bigot? Aibu to want to distance myself a bit? I don’t like feeling as though someone’s path to parenthood or happiness is “wrong” but it really doesn’t sit right with me and I’m not entirely sure why.

Who said anything about buying a baby? Stop jumping to conclusions!

@Flori7 they can get very generous “expenses”, paid monthly, like a salary in the UK. Average is £10k, but can go far higher. It’s a huge incentive to low income women.

Ah thank you. Oh wow!

So do you advocate for a) surrogacy, or b) advocate for surrogacy with certain restrictions?

If you advocate for a) you need to acknowledge you’re advocating for a practice that will inevitably involve cases that involve money changing hands for babies. It will inevitably involve cases where the intended parents have zero fertility issues, just don’t want deal with pregnancy. It will inevitably involve, in the majority of cases, poor vulnerable women who are desperate for the money. It will inevitably mean exploitation. This has to be acknowledged.

If you advocate for b), such as for example, only for women who have experienced infertility and exhausted all options, (given your personal experience) then you need to explain how you intend to make sure none of the myriad of terrible things that can happen will be prevented.

If you don’t think money should change hands how do you propose to police that?

If you think it should be reserved for those who have suffered infertility, how do you judge who and what level?

If these circumstances are met, whose rights come first? And at what stage? If the NIPT shows Trisomy 21 what then? If the mother wants a CVS but the intended parents don’t, who decides? If the intended parents don’t want a baby with Down Syndrome and want a termination should they get to compel the mother to have one? If the mother wants one and the intended parents don’t can she proceed, or compelled to remain pregnant against her will? If she wants a vaginal delivery but intended parents want a section who chooses? If the baby suffers asphyxia because of this choice is anyone to blame? Can the intended parents refuse to take a “damaged” baby (which has happened)? If the mother suffers a 4th degree tear and has continence issues, who pays for that care ongoing? If she dies what happens to her own family, emotionally and financially? If she’s rendered disabled and her husband has to be her carer what rights does he have if his life is changed? Should insurance for surrogacy be compulsory? Can it ever be adequate? What if the child grows up and seeks restitution, financially or emotionally for the trauma of not knowing their mother?

So it’s either a) you accept bad things will happen or b) you want to prevent bad things from happening and are going to produce a framework that will solve all of the (drop in the ocean of) possibilities of things that could go wrong.

Which is it?

@NotBadConsidering In the grand scheme of things what my opinion or yours don't matter. It's how the person feels in the moment!! Something that all you 'perfect' women are not understanding!

You can see your side, the side of the surro but not the side of person who I'd struggling with these issues... thank god none of you have have friends who have struggled to this level!!

There probably isn't anyone on here who does not know someone who struggled with fertility issues. It can be heartbreaking.
But as you say yourself, they are not the only person to consider, there is also the surrogate, and of course, the child.

No, the best interests of the child, and protection of vulnerable women being used for their bodies are the primary concerns- women being sad because they want a baby is just that, sad.

I want, I really really want, I’m left out, it’s not fair, I feel miserable, I’m depressed and all the other emotions infertility causes don’t mean that you are entitled to use another woman’s body or to take a baby from its mother. They just don’t.

@EarthlyNightshadeyes of course the child. The child and surro are the most important ppl to be thinking about

Your answer was inevitable. It’s the same one given every time I ask that question, a vague indication about emotions with no willingness to do the hard yards on addressing the problems they advocate for.

I do see the side of those struggling with fertility, but the emotion they/you may be feeling does not override the fact that the issues I’ve raised need solving. If you’re not willing to attempt this I understand. Because it can’t be solved. No framework exists. You have to acknowledge that someone is going to get fucked over one way or another.

But if you’re saying that those emotions you and other infertile women feel trump the significant risks that surrogacy relationships bring, you’re wrong. Unfortunately this is what happens in reality. The desperation of really wanting a baby outweighs these risks, people ignore these potential risks and hope, dear God they hope that none of them will apply to them. Then when they do, the fallout is horrendous. When surrogacy goes wrong, it goes really wrong and is never resolved peacefully or amicably and can involve death. But it’s the very fact that we are supposed to just accept “you don’t know how it feels” as being most important overriding aspect of surrogacy that leads to these life changing issues.

No.

When have you ever seen an animal take on another baby or breed because its necessary? From what I've seen ( I could be wrong 🤔 ) dogs for example will take on other newborns because they want to mother them. Some will reject them because they dont want to mother them.

All about you, what about the poor child ?

All about you, what about the poor child ?

Or the woman whose womb is being rented out

Your comment in turn makes me ‘LOL’

why not ‘just adopt a baby’?

You talk about your friend being blasé and come out with that gem.

What difference does that make?

So what, because you have fertility issues its ok to take part in human trafficking? Having a baby is not an automatic right.

Adoption is not something sort of sticking plaster bargain basement solution to becoming a parent neither is surrogacy you sound like a teenager OP.....simple view of hr world.

The way you say it makes it sound like the baby is being ripped from its birth mother's arms and being stolen basically. And that's not what's happening is it?

No, it's the sale of a human that's repugnant.

What happens if the mother (who is birthing the child) dies or suffers complications? Who will compensate her family?

What happens if there is something wrong with the child? If it's disabled or poorly or doesn't look right or isn't what the purchaser wants. What then happens to that child?

Or, the mother decides that she wants to keep the baby?

So many ethical issues here...

I agree there are a lot of ethical issues, which is why these are often discussed beforehand. Pregnancy can be dangerous for absolutely anyone, no matter whether you keep the child or not.

@Ididivfama you can discuss the issues all you like, it doesn’t mean anything if the purchaser changes their mind, or the surrogate dies or becomes disabled. And all the discussion in the world means nothing to the baby taken from its mother.

I agree there are a lot of ethical issues, which is why these are often discussed beforehand.

A few years ago a surrogate came on MN and did an “Ask Me Anything” thread. She had just had twin embryos implanted for a gay couple. She was asked on the first page what would happen if the couple died in a car crash before the babies were born? She replied she hadn’t considered that. Then she returned to the thread later and said she would put the babies up for adoption .

These sorts of issues are not discussed beforehand because if they were all parties would realise it is impossible to come up with a framework that protects everyone in all outcomes. Those with morals would realise that it would not be ethical to continue if all outcomes are considered - “what if the surrogate dies?”

So it’s either not discussed or hand waved away - “that won’t be us” - and everyone sets their morals aside and hopes for the best.

And that’s why I think there should be more in place.

Regardless, you could say this about lots of things!

But you could apply that logic to so many things, like what if a woman becomes pregnant and dies without a will. What happens to her baby? So many what ifs.

I think the most logical thing is to look at children who have been born from surrogates and look at how it affects them longterm. There are a lot of assumptions made on these posts.

But you could apply that logic to so many things, like what if a woman becomes pregnant and dies without a will. What happens to her baby? So many what ifs.

Well you could. But if a woman dies in the process of providing a baby for someone else, then it's not really something that person can wash their hands of.

I agree there are a lot of ethical issues, which is why these are often discussed beforehand.

I don't think they are though. That's the problem