Page 4 | To think he should be expelled for threatening me outside school?

fedupteacher9 · 2023-10-25T20:38:35+00:00

Do I just need to suck it up ? I am being routinely assaulted and threatened by students in my new job which I have been at for one term. I am currently in a support role (school librarian) after leaving teaching, thinking the pay cut would be worth less mental anguish of abuse from students. I have had 2 books thrown at my head by 2 different students. One was expelled and then unexpelled because the school feared being fined by the LA for incorrect expulsion. When he was unexpelled, I was aghast that he felt comfortable coming back into my library and sitting on his phone when he was meant to be in his lesson. Multiple times I had to get on call to remove him. SLT have obviously not taken this seriously. The second boy has yet to face consequences. Headmaster told me his punishment would be a year ban from the library: for assaulting me?! Am I crazy? If I told you what happened today, you wouldn't believe me. On the street I live on, a student approaches me and my partner and points a watergun at me. 'I should shoot you for kicking me out the library'. My partner just said 'come on lads, behave' and we walked away. This is my dream job, I competed with 50 other candidates for it, and one term in and I am applying elsewhere, to private schools where this shit won't happen. If you are wondering why this is happening, these boys are retaliating to being removed or banned from the library by me for poor behaviour, truculence, abuse of staff or insubordination. I am not raising my voice at any of these boys. I'm fucking livid.

DivingForLove · 25/10/2023 23:22

@doodleZ1 only after 3 months - I’m not being patronising, I’m being honest. It’s repeated on here time and time again. It does my head in. Unions are seen as the option when the shit hits the fan.

Original poster

fedupteacher9 · 25/10/2023 23:23

I have been in a union for more than three months

OP posts:

Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:25

So we're you hurt? Injured? Hospitalised? Needed treatment?

doodleZ1 · 25/10/2023 23:26

Everyone that works in a school should be in a Union. You will get no quarrel from me about that. I was told a long time ago it was for our own protection and its true now more than ever.

Original poster

fedupteacher9 · 25/10/2023 23:31

Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:25

So we're you hurt? Injured? Hospitalised? Needed treatment?

pipe down love

OP posts:

WearyAuldWumman · 25/10/2023 23:32

Foxesandsquirrels · 25/10/2023 23:14

I work in education still, albeit not full time. On the whole I do agree with you but a lot of our behaviour strategy does rely on the 'ultimate' threat that you will be kicked out and no one really rates you once you're in the PRU. I cannot imagine not having this option, for the safety of everyone. It also serves as a reminder to kids that there are long term effects to their behaviour. Teens aren't great at knowing this. Permanent exclusion is a very concrete and clear boundary they need. It's very difficult to permanently exclude, it's not an easy route and requires lots of evidence so it's not like it's being handed out like sweets with no foresight.
It is always the minority that ruin it for everyone and I have no doubt Scotland has plenty of lovely pupils and schools, however, not being able to permanently exclude shows a complete lack of respect for safeguarding amongst other things. It also sends the wrong message to children who will ultimately end up in a workplace where they'll be 'kicked' out for insubordination.

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I completely agree.

There was a case 5 years ago of a 15 yr old pupil who used a pencil as a weapon. (Cue cries of "Only a pencil? Pathetic.")

He stabbed a teacher in the neck. I don't know what the outcome of that was. The kid didn't return to the school. Neither did the teacher.

In social media, the parents' friends tried to blame it all on the teacher. Because the kid wasn't yet 16, the case was referred to the Children's Reporter.

Storyfiles · 25/10/2023 23:34

Sorry you’re going through this @fedupteacher9 it is unacceptable. Have you considered doing work in a public library instead ? I feel they’d be more likely to ban violent people who assault staff, but then I know they might require weekend and evening work too. I’d move to a better school as soon as I could be it private or not.

Ignore the minimisation of the water pistol in incident. In the context in which it happened,
if they had “shot” you with water it would have been an assault.( this doesn’t apply to a group of adults/kids having a fun water fight ). And because you know they dislike you and they’re aggressive, it must be unpleasant having them aim any kind of missile or object.

It’s shocking the conditions school staff are having to put up with due to poor discipline at home and school . I don’t give a damn what problems at home a child has when they’re threatening me and throwing books and chairs at me. At that point, my concern is keeping myself and other children safe. Allowing children to pass on their trauma to peers and teachers shouldn’t be normalised. I’ve known grown adults to have nervous breakdowns working in certain schools due to this kind of thing.

SisterMichaelsHabit · 25/10/2023 23:38

Nah this is your behaviour management style that's causing the problem. You're being too confrontational (which is nothing to do with raising your voice etc) and that's not the right style for this school. You need to work on this or stop trying to manage behaviour as if you were still a teacher (you're not, and won't be responded to by the pupils in the same way).

Also if you understood behaviour, behaviour management or children with behavioural problems at all you wouldn't be pushing for a child to be expelled, you'd be trying to work with them to build inroads and help them develop life skills. You're taking children's behaviour personally which means you don't have the professional boundaries or resilience for this role at this school with these kids. This type of school is just not compatible with your temperament and level of skills. That's fine, but you should probably look for a school where you will have the type of pupil you can manage.

(waits for another page of emojis as OP is convinced she's right).

Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:39

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fedupteacher9 · 25/10/2023 23:39

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Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:40

SisterMichaelsHabit · 25/10/2023 23:38

Nah this is your behaviour management style that's causing the problem. You're being too confrontational (which is nothing to do with raising your voice etc) and that's not the right style for this school. You need to work on this or stop trying to manage behaviour as if you were still a teacher (you're not, and won't be responded to by the pupils in the same way).

Also if you understood behaviour, behaviour management or children with behavioural problems at all you wouldn't be pushing for a child to be expelled, you'd be trying to work with them to build inroads and help them develop life skills. You're taking children's behaviour personally which means you don't have the professional boundaries or resilience for this role at this school with these kids. This type of school is just not compatible with your temperament and level of skills. That's fine, but you should probably look for a school where you will have the type of pupil you can manage.

(waits for another page of emojis as OP is convinced she's right).

This actually sums it up brilliantly.

BlueEyedPeanut · 25/10/2023 23:40

Charming. The OP is to blame because she is too gobby. That's a nice lesson to teach a young man. Good luck to his future partners.

MichelleScarn · 25/10/2023 23:46

Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:40

This actually sums it up brilliantly.

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And here we have prime examples of 'what did you DO to make them assault you?! The poor little lambs, don't you know you must do whatever they want and if they damage or destroy anything, its everyone else's fault!'
So op, get a stash of sweets and treats in so when you next get an object lobbed at you or threatened you can let them choose what they want!

MichelleScarn · 25/10/2023 23:47

BlueEyedPeanut · 25/10/2023 23:40

Charming. The OP is to blame because she is too gobby. That's a nice lesson to teach a young man. Good luck to his future partners.

Not even 'gobby' she's just not communicating passively and apologetically enough!

MissHoollie · 25/10/2023 23:51

To the Scottish teacher that said it can't happen in Scotland re explosion for outside school things it must vary from region to region
It does happen in my area

Smartiepants79 · 25/10/2023 23:52

Hankunamatata · 25/10/2023 23:25

So we're you hurt? Injured? Hospitalised? Needed treatment?

Why in the hell should anyone have to have this as part of their job?? Why should I have to be injured or hospitalised before it’s considered to be a problem????
I’m not a prison officer, working for the police or the army, I don’t go to work expecting to be assaulted.
I can’t even believe what I’m reading.
Any child who requires this level of adjustments to be made does not belong in mainstream education. They need specialist help.
Do you go to work expecting to be assaulted and threatened by the people you’re working for? Whilst being paid less than £20,000 a year.

Original poster

fedupteacher9 · 25/10/2023 23:52

MichelleScarn · 25/10/2023 23:46

And here we have prime examples of 'what did you DO to make them assault you?! The poor little lambs, don't you know you must do whatever they want and if they damage or destroy anything, its everyone else's fault!'
So op, get a stash of sweets and treats in so when you next get an object lobbed at you or threatened you can let them choose what they want!

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Do not even engage, both posters are clearly reactionary trolls speaking on matters they possesses zero authority or understanding of, and do not have even a fraction of the context. During supply teaching, I had a job offer from a headteacher based on my behaviour management skills (the school was appalling and going into special measures so I graciously declined).

I must insist that the way I spoke to the kids was not confrontational at all and was extremely measured, calm and understanding, yet firm.

OP posts:

CushionLover · 25/10/2023 23:57

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 25/10/2023 23:21

@CushionLover

But a kid's education and life chances shouldn't be jeopardised for a water gun and getting a book thrown at you, which are both not exactly high stakes issues.

Are you for real?? Do parents actually think like this?

Youre saying a child’s education and “life chances” should be jeopardised for throwing a hard object at a person in a position of authority over them. That’s what you’re saying.

How about: a librarian who is seeking to educate children to improve their life chances shouldn’t have to do so under the threat of violence or physical assault…from the very people they’re trying to educate.

Or even: a child’s life chances and education might actually be improved by learning that you can’t fucking assault teachers / employers / civil servants and get away with it? Next time he tries this, it’ll end up in a young offender’s institute after he takes out someone’s eye.

Or how about this: boys should be sight that violence isn’t ever acceptable.

I CANNOT believe you actually think this way.

Yep so if you read my post you'll see I also acknowledged it's not acceptable for this behaviour to be experienced by the OP.

What I'm saying is expulsion is out of proportion, not that there shouldn't be repercussions. Exclusion shuts down the opportunities a kid has, increasing their likelihood of exploitation by criminals and entering the criminal justice system themselves, among all sorts of other impacts. I think there's a lot that can be done to change behaviours without increasing the likelihood of things like that by looking at other options.

WearyAuldWumman · 25/10/2023 23:57

MissHoollie · 25/10/2023 23:51

To the Scottish teacher that said it can't happen in Scotland re explosion for outside school things it must vary from region to region
It does happen in my area

Thanks for that. Good to know. It certainly wouldn't happen in the LA that I mainly worked in.

PS Love the typo! :p

BarbDwyerHair · 25/10/2023 23:59

Who drags these kids up?

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 25/10/2023 23:59

There are some fucking stupid comments on this thread. Of course what’s happened to you, OP, is unacceptable. I despair at the behaviour that some are excusing.

I went to a crappy comprehensive decades ago. There was a lot of violence among the boys, and assaults on teachers. But expulsions (yes, nowadays ‘exclusion’) did happen. There was an expectation that misconduct attracted punishment.

The modern willingness to condone violence and threats by children is so depressing.

Myfabby · 26/10/2023 00:04

fedupteacher9 · 25/10/2023 23:52

Do not even engage, both posters are clearly reactionary trolls speaking on matters they possesses zero authority or understanding of, and do not have even a fraction of the context. During supply teaching, I had a job offer from a headteacher based on my behaviour management skills (the school was appalling and going into special measures so I graciously declined).

I must insist that the way I spoke to the kids was not confrontational at all and was extremely measured, calm and understanding, yet firm.

Show quote history

Sadly, they are probably not. MN is full of lots of parents like this, challenging their children's detention, phone seizure etc. Lots of I'd storm into the Head's office and collect my phone, my child shouldn't have detention, because the teacher has also been late. Imagine the sheer audacity of asking if you were hospitalized.

No child should be throwing anything at anyone and especially not a member of staff.

What I do agree with is that you are not cut out for their children. You are way too cultured and well mannered. Go to a school where there are swift and appropriate sanctions. Let their kids run feral.

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 26/10/2023 00:16

BarbDwyerHair · 25/10/2023 23:59

Who drags these kids up?

Lots of people who post on MN!
'Go in and raise hell!! How dare they not praise your child for their verbose abuse and excellent lobbing of object skills! They should be thankful'!!

fuchsteufelswild · 26/10/2023 00:17

My PE/bio teacher once calmly told one of those kids that "those who damage books grow up to hit women" completely out of the blue, during class.

He was, although strict, the most popular teacher by a mile and he wasn't afraid to call out behaviour that would eventually get the perpetrators themselves into trouble down the line. He thought it was just part of his job.

Foxesandsquirrels · 26/10/2023 00:20

fuchsteufelswild · 26/10/2023 00:17

My PE/bio teacher once calmly told one of those kids that "those who damage books grow up to hit women" completely out of the blue, during class.

He was, although strict, the most popular teacher by a mile and he wasn't afraid to call out behaviour that would eventually get the perpetrators themselves into trouble down the line. He thought it was just part of his job.

This is exactly what I want to say to that particular poster but I don't want to feed the troll. These boys will be 'men' in 3ish years time. We then read the news and wonder where it all went wrong.