To share the actual definition of antisemitism

[LemonyTicket]

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

which is in no way the same statement.

I think that's exactly right. And it's to be expected to a degree that people use hyperbolic words and do not treat situations equally or fairly all the time. Their bias shows. I am an historian, and the first thing you learn is every information source is biased!

There are certain statements people can hear and debate on without much knowledge or information needed. For example, "fashionable" organisations might say "Trans women are women". And that's a statement most people can wrestle with on their own.

If you ask my kids, they'd agree, "trans women are women". It's conceptual to them. It's ideology. The fact it isn't biologically, scientifically or factually actually true isn't relevant. Whereas to me, as supportive as I am of trans people - if you have a willy and not a hoo hoo, then you are not a woman.

But then when it comes to these same "fashionable" organisations making statements like "Ethnic Cleansing" or "Apartheid", in order to establish if you actually agreed with that' you'd need intricate knowledge of what apartheid really means and the difference between that and basic racism or warfare, as well as detailed knowledge of Israeli law, policy and so on and so forth as well as a regional outlook.

People just agree with it in the way they agree with "trans women are women". It doesn't meet the scientific fact scale, but it doesn't matter, they can just go along with it. And generally that would be fine (I mean, I am used to these organisations using hyperbole) but what makes it not fine is this simple truth:

Jews have been persecuted for 3000 years on the basis of being characterised as a uniquely evil group, demonic even. Therefore choosing the only Jewish state as a target for such hyperbole is dangerous. Antisemitism is a big enough problem without stirring up even more hate.

So that's why it bothers me.

Israel, factually, is the only multiculturally, liberal democracy anywhere in the region. It is the only place where different races and creeds can live fully equally under law. The only place gays can kiss in the street.

What Israel are doing is very wrong right now, but you need to judge them on that - rather than redefining terms to demonise them incorrectly.

But while I think that the reaction of Israel cannot be excused, it shouldn't mean Jewish people here need to pay for it.

Of course not. That is awful! I hope your son and other children are ok. I think most would understand if he went home for a short period. He shouldn’t have to but everything is very heightened right now and I am not surprised he is unsettled. It’s a lot to deal with. Even I am looking over my shoulder worrying about terror attacks just from a west/ U.K. citizen perspective. Things are scary right now. Stay safe 💐

I was NOT referring to Israel.

The poster said that "Comparing stuff to Nazis is not cool"

Sorry - but when people start behaving in ways that the Nazis started with.
Treating people as other
Blaming them for problems in speeches
Using rhetoric that starts to demonise them.
Then that is a comparison to the Nazis.
And we all know where that ended up.

You showed a picture and claimed "Many Palestinians are Nazis".
From one picture.

And some people challenged you on that statement. Because there are many Palestinians.

With regards to points 1 and 3, surely it needs to be acceptable to discuss the relative power of the Israeli state (economic and otherwise) in the area? Can one do so without being accused of violating principles under 1) and 3)?

Can Israel still claim about anti-semitism? I

I do wonder if there is an element of Israel being seen as “one of us” though. Your examples are all of objectively terrible regimes who don’t care about the human rights of their own populations let alone of other countries.

I view Israel as an extension of the west, so to me the citizens have the same values as Australians, Canadians etc - I would feel just as safe walking around Tel Aviv as I would Vancouver (minus the threat of rockets obviously).

So we are posting threads as it’s a country which is meant to be liberal and democratic that is doing this, and one that our own country is supporting, so there is a “point” to critiquing their actions (ie our own governments might be able to provide diplomatic pressure for a cease fire).

Whereas if China does something, well they are a communist dictatorship that we have basically zero influence over so protesting etc doesn’t really do anything, we already know that our own governments are trying to protect Taiwan. Equally the Taliban are already our enemies and it is settled opinion that what they are doing is atrocious!

Just my viewpoint as someone who doesn’t have anything against Jewish people and just sees all the wonderful things they have done for humanity, and also believes they have a right to a peaceful homeland in Israel.

I do wonder if there is an element of Israel being seen as “one of us” though. Your examples are all of objectively terrible regimes who don’t care about the human rights of their own populations let alone of other countries.

I view Israel as an extension of the west, so to me the citizens have the same values as Australians, Canadians etc - I would feel just as safe walking around Tel Aviv as I would Vancouver (minus the threat of rockets obviously).

So we are posting threads as it’s a country which is meant to be liberal and democratic that is doing this, and one that our own country is supporting, so there is a “point” to critiquing their actions (ie our own governments might be able to provide diplomatic pressure for a cease fire).

Yes, I think that's exactly it.

And a similar but slightly different aspect: One non-western regime in a developing country slaughtering another group of people in a developing country just means that humans can be violent and inclined to war. We don't understand the culture and values of each party so that limits what we can say about it (and we don't want to be culturally chauvinist by judging the situation according to our own culture and values).

But when a country that is supposedly "western" in culture and values, even if situated in the middle east, slaughters a group of people of non-western culture and values, then that brings with it overtones of the west's perceived superiority to other cultures and right to dominate them. It echoes century after century of colonialism. That compels people with a strong egalitarian or anti-colonial mindset to object more actively.

@Catusrusty It may be as you say, but it may also be because what China is doing, what Myanmar, etc are doing is not in the press to the extent Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine. Now, you could say that that is because the world doesn’t care about Muslims but Israel/Palestine defeats that theory. I suspect it’s because the Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine conflicts pose a real threat of destabilising entire continents, or even the world, whereas what China and Myanmar are doing doesn’t.

I’ve also never heard any realistic suggestion that the UK provide military assistance to those affected by China or Myanmar’s actions as it is been in the case of both Ukraine and Israel, therefore it is much more relevant to us as a country, and people are more likely to take a view on it, than conflicts with which we are unlikely to get involved.

I also agree with PPs that countries perceived as being westernised are considered more accountable and held to higher standards.

I think that China's naval ambitions including now having the world's largest Navy and the inevitable invasion of Taiwan will be far more destabilising than another Middle Eastern conflict, but you barely hear a peep.

@Catusrusty I agree it will be destablising - I’m not sure whether it will be more or less destablising but I imagine if/ when the invasion starts we’ll hear a lot more about it.

As part of that conversation, someone said that a lot of Palestinians were more like Nazis,

For someone who picks apart some other people's posts, and who is quick to throw around accusations of jew bashing, it's quite strange that you have both ignored what the original poster said about Palestinians, and also have changed what that poster said in order to downplay it, and accuse someone who questions it as having gone loopy.

For clarity, they said a large number of Palestinians were Nazis, not that they were more like Nazis. Semantics seem to matter a lot to you when it suits but not at other times.

Also, the person who has said a large number of Palestinians are Nazis has posted a photograph of a Nazi shop as proof. I could post a picture of a grouo of people with Nazi insignia in the UK and say a large number of British people are Nazis, but it wouldn't make it true.

This is interesting in the discussion of reporting and talking about Israel and Palestine, where the question is why are they always talked about but other places not. It seems this has gone more or less under the radar and most discussion is about Gaza.

The last paragraph though does touch on what someone said in this thread about us being used to violence in various places around the world so it doesn't really make it to talking points.

But interesting that it's part of Palestine this time that's not moved into the general discourse.

@AFieldGuideToTrees I read about this a few days ago, but I agree it’s been under reported. What I read was that there had been a number of civilian Israeli reprisals against Palestinians in the West Bank and that the IDF wasn’t attempting to stop it. I haven’t read much else though and I’m not sure how true it is.

For someone who picks apart some other people's posts, and who is quick to throw around accusations of jew bashing, it's quite strange that you have both ignored what the original poster said about Palestinians, and also have changed what that poster said in order to downplay it, and accuse someone who questions it as having gone loopy.

LOL. It's not strange at all. 😁

All pan Arab nations to accept Israel exists and isn't going anywhere.

Moderate governance of Palestinian territories with an end to radicalisation of young people, terrorism and extremism.

Enormous focus on building positive lives and thriving communities for Palestinian people; jobs, basic freedoms, great education and so on.

Focus from pan Arab nations on resolving refugee situation and ensuring there are not refugees left as perpetual refugees.

Israel to move back within its legal borders, follow international law to the letter and promote positive relations.

It might be then that Jewish people could live in Gaza or the west Bank, like Arabs do in Israel - but not as occupiers.

All that would require a lot of commitment and effort and I think it's very unlikely to happen.

AFieldGuideToTrees

Yes of course you can because as discussed in follow up posts nazi ideology is still popular all around the world nobody is claiming it isn't. The discussion of this is and the way Hitler deliberate brainwashed Arabs with his daily propaganda news broadcasts os also talked about in the thread. All very much to do with how antisemitism is spread.

Try reading the thread, though I have only had a quick peck at the last few posts because I am on break at work. So just as bad as you!

Love that in order to try and win a debate my posts have been careful picked apart rather than read or reposted as a whole including the explanation when challenged.

If someone doesn't want to learn and understand antisemitism or all the factors involved in why Arabs have large groups that believe nazi antisemitic ideology or why you should call Jews nazis because it is racist you can't teach them.

Only people that want to try and understand will open up there minds and listen. This is a good thread and explains a lot. It also shows a lot about how people try to pick apart and whatabout Jew issues. However they don't do this with other ethnic or cultural groups. So thank you for posters that have tried to do this. It has been a good example to those reading the whole thread properly. Also thank you for people with genuine questions or challenges to the original ops posts. That is also good for people to read because I am sure others out there could be thinking the same as you.

Saying all that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

My last bit of information on this thread about Arabs and antisemitism:

"Arab nationalists — as opposed to Arab Islamists — understood that flirting with antisemitism was counter-productive in the struggle against Israel. The PLO’s Yasser Arafat deliberately distanced himself from the Mufti in the 1960s.

At a recent film festival in Ismailiya, a documentary about Nazi ties to the Muslim Brotherhood was shown and an article on this subject appeared in the Saudi periodical Okaz.

Küntzel argues that the Islamist Hamas will probably never recognise Israel for theological reasons whereas the nationalist PLO negotiated in 1993 because it was not entrapped by interpretations of religion. It is important now the difference between Palestinian nationalist and Palestinian Islamist groups of thinking".

I haven't changed it at all, you're just ignoring the context.

People were saying Jews / Israel were Nazis and someone responded to give their opinion that actually the "other side" were the ones with the problem on that front. It wasn't just a random statement.

I've got no reason to "pick it apart" what was said, because

A) it's not racist to say that, so people can say it if they like (and you're free to challenge it if you want to)

B) I have no data on which to "pick apart" the statement. Have you?

The data I do have is awareness that numerous scholars like Michel Onfray, Michael Howard, Jeffrey Herf Walter Laquer and so on have argued that islamic radicalism is a kind of facism. I've not researched it, and thus have no real opinion, but groups like Hamas certainly tick some obvious boxes for facism.

Disdain for democracy, liberalism, rule of law, left wing values, human rights. Authoritarian rule with no free press or political freedom with a policy of antisemitism and desire to exterminate Jews. Although I'm not sure that's entirely how I'd define being a Nazi. I'd have to give it extensive thought, so it's a discussion for another thread and another day.

A large chunk of my family were killed by Arab Nazis (self described followers of Hitler and his antisemitic views) in a nearby country- so if someone told me there was ongoing support of similar ideas from groups expressing they'd like to kill all Jews, would I be shocked? I don’t know.

I've not researched and investigated it. I did find it interesting to see the crossover of the pro Palestine demonstrations with people shouting "gas the Jews". But none of this is really the point. The point is, I don't have the data. Have you?

Really the point here is that this particular language directed at israel is antisemitic. Which is the real problem isn't it? The posters here want to be able to call Israel Nazis and they're spitting their dummies out because they're being told most people would find that very antisemitic.

I haven't changed it at all, you're just ignoring the context.

Always someone else in the wrong.

You literally misquoted the poster who said it and used your misquotion to take a pop at someone else.

The point is, I don't have the data. Have you?

No, of course I don't have the data, because I'm not the one claiming that a large number of Palestinians are Nazis.

Perhaps you could ask the poster who did state that to back up their statement with some verifiable data instead of posting a photo of a shop.

Hold them to the same level of accountability as you hold others on this thread.

The posters here want to be able to call Israel Nazis and they're spitting their dummies out because they're being told most people would find that very antisemitic.

Who are these posters? Name them.

Nonsense. A group of you have showed up to derail (as you do on any and every thread related to Jews) and twist it around from being a thread explaining what antisemitism is, to being yet another thread attacking Israel, and when people respond to you, you claim it's them who started it.

You've got really no interest in understanding antisemitism. Just in acting out your hostility.