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Original poster

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:02

nc14 · 19/10/2023 00:38

I have reported this thread. You can’t make controversial statements about the current conflict and Palestinians under the guise of the definition of anti-semitism and then complain when challenged on those statements. This isn’t a space for you to say whatever the hell you want unchallenged.

Edited

Your first post on this thread was:

"DistrictAndCircle I agree with this but many NGOs believe Israel/ Palestine is an apartheid state. It’s not a radical view"

You have come here purely to Israel bash. It is YOU who has arrived to make "controversial statements" and feel a thread about antisemitism and how to recognise it is the right place for that.

If you'd like to start a thread about Israel being an apartheid state - no one is stopping you -go right ahead. Jews can then choose to avoid reading that if they want to.

But waltzing into a discussion where many people are trying to discuss antisemitism in a good faith manner just purely to discharge your venom is not appropriate.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:04

nc14 · 19/10/2023 00:38

I have reported this thread. You can’t make controversial statements about the current conflict and Palestinians under the guise of the definition of anti-semitism and then complain when challenged on those statements. This isn’t a space for you to say whatever the hell you want unchallenged.

Edited

You really have an issue with people understand antisemitism don't you. If you especially if you are having your own beliefs corrected or your beliefs about the conflict corrected with truths.

What is the matter are you worried mumsneters may read the truth about a why things have happened or why the crys of GENOCIDE, NAZIS or ETHIC CLEANSING are used. Else is it the fact that if people learn what antisemitism is they will recognise it more easily and call it out?

If you don't want to know answers stop asking questions or trying to push a narrative on people that is a falsehood. However don't demand a thread is deleted because is isn't going the way you like.

nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:04

@LemonyTicket The post you referred to said that Israel was not an apartheid state. It seems you have no issue with people making OT comments about the conflict in favour of Israel, only against it.

nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:06

@Trulywonderful This isn’t a thread about the definition of anti-semitism though is it - it’s a thread for you to be able to call ‘a large number of Palestinians Nazis’ and not be challenged on it.

Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:06

Freshstart78 · 19/10/2023 00:53

Glad you have posted it but going to say I don’t agree with your interpretations of 10 and 11. No country, person, religion or group are above my judgement and it would be anti Semitic (or maybe pro Semitic?) in itself if I applied your interpretation of these rules.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor
**
Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

I don’t know what you mean necessarily by state of Israel. Am I against Israel existing - of course not. Am I against the expansion of Israel and occupation of Palestinian land beyond the UN agreement - yes. That’s nothing to do with Jewish people - that’s a country doing that. I would feel the same way about any other country doing that. And about whether we have the right to deny Israel to decide that for themselves. Well of course we do. In the same we deny Russia trying to take land from Ukraine. Or China from the neighbouring countries they are always eyeing up.

As an aside my own personal view is Jerusalem should be a separate state like the Vatican City. It should not be Israeli or any other countries. It is the birth well of most modern religion and important to everyone world over. I think the whole Palestine / Israel issue will require world over peace brokering involving all other countries as it’s clear both sides are too traumatised to sort this themselves. Never going to happen. When that deal is brokered Jerusalem needs to be removed as separate to both states.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
**
Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

It’s true I have different expectations for different countries. Israel is a modern civilised society and I expect it to behave like one. I expect reason, rational, democratic and good behaviour from their leadership. The same as I expect of all first world countries. Russia and China included. I can express displeasure or outrage when they don’t meet these standards. Like when US banned abortions or when China are incarcerating and killing Ugyhurs. Do I expect Iran to allow gay marriage. Probably not. Would I be outraged if Canada banned gay marriage. Of course!

Am I against the expansion of Israel and occupation of Palestinian land beyond the UN agreement - yes

This is not denying Jewish people their right to state. It is expecting them not to illegally invade the states of others. Which is reasonable, measured and not in any way antisemitic.

Do I expect Iran to allow gay marriage. Probably not. Would I be outraged if Canada banned gay marriage. Of course!

Indeed, that's why it says specifically that Israel should be held up to the same standards as other democratic nations.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:13

nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:00

@AgingDisgracefullyHere I didn’t have to, the OP and @Trulywonderful have managed that!

Again don't drag me into it. You are the one that kept asked me a question and then kept asking me questions.

I will consider to being a bit of a waffle and going of tangent sometimes if I find something interesting.

However you were the one asking me questions repeatedly. I was just being polite and answering.

Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:17

nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:04

@LemonyTicket The post you referred to said that Israel was not an apartheid state. It seems you have no issue with people making OT comments about the conflict in favour of Israel, only against it.

You have come here (to an antisemitism thread) and repeatedly said it was. That was your opening remark actually. I have replied to you. Me replying to you is me responding to your inflammatory statements. Not me making them.

You are making inflammatory statements in a very inappropriate thread for it, and then having a tantrum when you are politely asked to stop and then tried to have the entire thread deleted because you feel Jews and other people shouldn't be able to discuss antisemitism without your derailing it to bashing Israel.

Ay ay ay! But as you have already succeeded in derailing because you clearly have respect at level zero for other people, here is your answer:

Arabs living in the territory of the former Mandate for Palestine (which includes Israel, the “West Bank,” and the Gaza Strip) are racially identical. And largely have the same religion too.

Yet, Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, including the right to form political parties and stand for election, opportunities to serve as members of the Knesset, the judiciary, the diplomatic corps, the police, and so on—rights and privileges that would never be allowed in an apartheid State—thereby eviscerating claims of racial (or religious) discrimination, which underlie apartheid.

As such, differences in Israel’s treatment of Arabs living in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip and Arabs citizens of Israel are not—and, indeed, cannot be—“racially” or religiously motivated for the simple reason that both groups of Arabs are racially and religiously identical.

For the claim of apartheid to be true, one would expect Israel to devise racially discriminatory policies against all Arabs under its control, which Israel clearly does not do. Hence, there must be another reason for the disparate treatment. And that reason should be obvious unless you have a malevolent agenda. So here it is:

Arabs residing in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip are not now—and never have been—Israeli citizens and, therefore, cannot claim rights due to Israeli citizens. All countries favor their own citizens vs non-citizens, and doing so is not an indication of apartheid simply because the two groups are treated differently. If it was, then every country on earth is an Apartheid State.

What is also ignored in this narrative, is that many Arabs in the “West Bank” and the Gaza Strip are engaged in an ongoing armed conflict with Israel. Israel is faced with a hostile population which has yet to come to terms with Israel’s existence and which actively seeks to destroy the Jewish State. In fact their leadership outright state their sole goal is to kill all Jews. That requires Israel to take certain measures for its national security.

So the reality is: Israel treats all of its citizens—be they Jew, Arab, or Druze—equally before the law, irrespective of any racial, religious or ethnic differences. Is there racism? YES. These two groups are in conflict and have been for 100 years (or 600 if you want to be more accurate). But nevertheless they are equal under the law. And that is not the case for Jews ANYWHERE in the Middle East and was not for 600 years under Muslim rule when they lived as Dhimmi.

In 2023, no Jew can move to Gaza and get equal citizens rights. No Jew can move to Iran or Jordan or Syria and get equal citizens rights. No Jew can move to any of these places and get rights of any sort. Israel is in effect the only multicultural country in the entire region, and the only when where ALL people regardless of race, religion, gender, sexuality or political persuasion are equal under the eyes of the law.

Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its other actions are reprehensible in many ways and there is indeed ethnic segregation and no equal protection under the law. But it is not within the state of Israel. That is an entirely different issue to debate, and a good one to address, but by using words incorrectly you make it impossible to have a reasoned conversation.

Israel does not have a racial segregation implemented by law. It’s an easy fact to check. Israel is a multicultural society where all citizens have full, equal rights—in the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, as well as in the Israeli court system, including the Supreme Court. There are Arab doctors, professors, policemen, teachers, and countless other professions, working side by side with Jews.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:20

Is anyone making a cup of tea?

Need one then calling it a night soon

Subtlety1985 · 19/10/2023 01:25

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 22:15

Try a social experiment then. Here is the APPG definition of Islamophobia. I am posting it. Does anyone feel any of it is "rubbish"? Or not right, or not fair?

 Calling for, aiding, instigating or justifying the killing or harming of Muslims in the name of a racist/ fascist ideology, or an extremist view of religion.

 Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Muslims as such, or of Muslims as a collective group, such as, especially but not exclusively, conspiracies about Muslim entryism in politics, government or other societal institutions; the myth of Muslim identity having a unique propensity for terrorism, and claims of a demographic ‘threat’ posed by Muslims or of a ‘Muslim takeover’.

 Accusing Muslims as a group of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Muslim person or group of Muslim individuals, or even for acts committed by non-Muslims.

 Accusing Muslims as a group, or Muslim majority states, of inventing or exaggerating Islamophobia, ethnic cleansing or genocide perpetrated against Muslims.

 Accusing Muslim citizens of being more loyal to the ‘Ummah’ (transnational Muslim community) or to their countries of origin, or to the alleged priorities of Muslims worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

 Denying Muslim populations the right to self-determination e.g., by claiming that the existence of an independent Palestine or Kashmir is a terrorist endeavour.

 Applying double standards by requiring of Muslims behaviours that are not expected or demanded of any other groups in society, eg loyalty tests.

 Using the symbols and images associated with classic Islamophobia (e.g. Muhammed being a paedophile, claims of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword or subjugating “Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.” minority groups under their rule) to characterize Muslims as being ‘sex groomers’, inherently violent or incapable of living harmoniously in plural societies.

 Holding Muslims collectively responsible for the actions of any Muslim majority state, whether secular or constitutionally Islamic.

Show quote history

Some more;

  1. Seen as separate and "other". It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
  2. It is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
  3. It is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a clash of civilizations.
  4. It is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
  5. Criticisms made of "the West" by Muslims are rejected out of hand.
  6. Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
  7. Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural and normal.
Itisyourturntowashthebath · 19/10/2023 01:27

@Trulywonderful the Westbank has an estimated population of 2,747,943 Palestinians, and over 670,000 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank,

Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:28

Subtlety1985 · 19/10/2023 01:25

Some more;

  1. Seen as separate and "other". It does not have values in common with other cultures, is not affected by them and does not influence them.
  2. It is seen as inferior to the West. It is seen as barbaric, irrational, primitive, and sexist.
  3. It is seen as violent, aggressive, threatening, supportive of terrorism, and engaged in a clash of civilizations.
  4. It is seen as a political ideology, used for political or military advantage.
  5. Criticisms made of "the West" by Muslims are rejected out of hand.
  6. Hostility towards Islam is used to justify discriminatory practices towards Muslims and exclusion of Muslims from mainstream society.
  7. Anti-Muslim hostility is seen as natural and normal.
Show quote history

Well, I posted it and the only person who's responded did so to agree with it and say it's not gone far enough.

It's identical to the points on the IHRA definition of antisemitism, yet people are fine with it.

No messages calling it rubbish. No people showing up to insult Muslims or Muslim countries.

Social experiment complete :)

FWIW, I agree with what you wrote.

OP posts:
nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:33

@LemonyTicket I stand by what I said. You creating a thread about anti-semitism does not give you and others a licence to say whatever you want about the current conflict and Palestinians.

What I said was that I agreed with all a previous poster had said but not that a particular view was radical (apartheid) as many NGOs agree with it. I was not intending to open up a discussion on it, I just did not agree with that particular statement, this was at a similar time to another poster saying ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’, which you appear to have taken no issue with.

Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:40

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 19/10/2023 01:27

@Trulywonderful the Westbank has an estimated population of 2,747,943 Palestinians, and over 670,000 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank,

Thank you, It has bea couple of years since I last had to debate this stuff. My brain mush these days too.

There is an argument for the fact not all the Jews there are Settlers because some returned to there homes in the 60s I think after Jordan had run them out in 1948. I believe around 70k returned to their houses land. However not the thread etc

Ta for the information much appreciated

Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:42

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:28

Well, I posted it and the only person who's responded did so to agree with it and say it's not gone far enough.

It's identical to the points on the IHRA definition of antisemitism, yet people are fine with it.

No messages calling it rubbish. No people showing up to insult Muslims or Muslim countries.

Social experiment complete :)

FWIW, I agree with what you wrote.

Show quote history

Nice

Freshstart78 · 19/10/2023 01:48

This is not denying Jewish people their right to state. It is expecting them not to illegally invade the states of others. Which is reasonable, measured and not in any way antisemitic.

If we are being correct about language here I was talking about Israel not Jewish people.

But yes pleased I passed the antisemitism test.

My son is a quarter Ashkenazi Jew. He’s so unbelievably beautiful and full of innocent joy and wonder at life. When I look at injured frightened children in Gaza I can see my son, as much as when I saw nurseries covered in bullets and blood from atrocities last week against Jews in Israel.

I hope reason and peace can be bought to Israel and Palestine swiftly. This unprecedented suffering of children needs to stop immediately.

Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 01:49

LemonyTicket is this OK to post here. A less serious point about antisemitism:

After the assassination of Tsar Alexander II of Russia, a government official in Ukraine menacingly addressed the local rabbi. "I suppose you know in full detail who was behind it."

"Ach," the rabbi replied, "I have no idea, but the government's conclusion will be the same as always: they will blame the Jews and the chimneysweeps."

"Why the chimneysweeps?" asked the befuddled official.

"Why the Jews?" responded the rabbi.

Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:50

nc14 · 19/10/2023 01:33

@LemonyTicket I stand by what I said. You creating a thread about anti-semitism does not give you and others a licence to say whatever you want about the current conflict and Palestinians.

What I said was that I agreed with all a previous poster had said but not that a particular view was radical (apartheid) as many NGOs agree with it. I was not intending to open up a discussion on it, I just did not agree with that particular statement, this was at a similar time to another poster saying ‘a large number of Palestinians are Nazis’, which you appear to have taken no issue with.

Edited

There are people who came to this thread claiming it was fine to compare Jews to Nazis and a very long discussion developed around that. That is perfectly fine, because it relates to the antisemitism discussion.

As part of that conversation, someone said that a lot of Palestinians were more like Nazis, which is what seems to have driven you loopy. I note the pages before that of people saying Jews were Nazis was no problem for you, but someone saying the same about Palestinians has bothered you.

As for why I have not objected to that statement, I will explain.

First of all, because as I have already outlined several times, it is antisemitic to call Jews Nazis. I have explained why in detail, and it is included on the official definition of antisemitism for very good reasons.

Calling Palestinians Nazis is not Islamophobic.

Likewise if someone called a Jew a terrorist, I would assess it based on if it were true or not. I would not assess it as a form of racism, because this term, when directed at Jews, is not racist.

So similarly, I asses an accusation that many Palestinians are Nazis on if it is true or not. And I do not know if it is true or not. It might well be true. If it were true, it would not be racist to say so.

What I do know is this:

a) There is a strong crossover between antisemitism and support of Hitler, as seen in many far right groups.]

b) Hamas share the same beliefs as the Nazis (extermination of all Jews) and superiority of their group / race.

c) Many Muslim groups worked hand in hand with the Nazis during the Holocaust. In fact Hitler gave them special status and met with many leaders. Certainly in my grandparents home in Iraq, there were nightly broadcasts of Nazi content and Mein Kampf was serialised in the newspaper.

So I frankly don't know if "many" Palestinians are Nazis. That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say it, so it's something I would research, but withhold judgement on until I have solid information.

It's not something I would say myself, without adequate evidence, but as Muslims are not persecuted on the basis of being Nazis - it's not racist. To put simply, if someone said: "lots of Ghanians are Nazis" or "lots of Australians are Nazis" or "lots of Idonesians are Nazis", I would generally have no response to it.

Why?

Because

a) I have no bloody idea if they are or not

b) They are not Jews, so this specific slur might be offensive if it's incorrect - but it it not racist

I treat everyone by the same standards. Likewise if someone came here and said "a lot of Jews are terrorists", it would not be racist. It might be incorrect, but not racist. However establishing whether it were correct or not would be fairly easy.

I certainly think the people saying "death to all Jews" might possibly share some Nazi ideology and am not discounting that because who knows. I'd have to understand more to have a comment.

As is, I think largely most people have no idea what Palestinians think or feel because they are not allowed to speak out, have free press, protest or participate in fair elections.

When they do I will know what they think!

OP posts:
Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 01:52

Freshstart78 · 19/10/2023 01:48

This is not denying Jewish people their right to state. It is expecting them not to illegally invade the states of others. Which is reasonable, measured and not in any way antisemitic.

If we are being correct about language here I was talking about Israel not Jewish people.

But yes pleased I passed the antisemitism test.

My son is a quarter Ashkenazi Jew. He’s so unbelievably beautiful and full of innocent joy and wonder at life. When I look at injured frightened children in Gaza I can see my son, as much as when I saw nurseries covered in bullets and blood from atrocities last week against Jews in Israel.

I hope reason and peace can be bought to Israel and Palestine swiftly. This unprecedented suffering of children needs to stop immediately.

I see my kids in them too.

Wanting people to not be antisemitic does not mean you do not have sympathy with Palestinian people.

And sympathy for Palestinian people doesn't equate to needing to be antisemitic.

OP posts:
Freshstart78 · 19/10/2023 02:02

I see my kids in them too.

I find myself welling up about it at times.

If only mothers ruled the world. I am not saying we would be perfect. There’s a few world leaders I would happily slip a poison tea. But I think we would be a bit more measured about things and try not to cause outright destruction and suffering.

I am hoping things will change. This war and Ukraine have been different. So many people have smart phones and internet that shifts power from ideologies and governments to the individual. Everyone said outrage about Ukraine was because they were white. I questioned that but reserved judgement. Having seen the unanimous response to Gazan suffering I know the difference was the smart phone and the inability of media to shield what’s really happening.

nc14 · 19/10/2023 02:02

I only recall someone hypothesising if Israelis/Jews acted in similar ways to Nazis then it would be appropriate to make that comparison. I don’t recall anyone calling Israelis/Jews Nazis. If I had seen that I would have taken issue with it too. I’m not sure though why you should only take issue with racist terms (by your definition) but not also offensive terms. I’m sure there are Nazis out there but I don’t think it’s fair to brand ‘a large number’ of a population as Nazis. I agree with you people do not know what Palestinians feel or think, except perhaps the one poster here who claims to.

I did come here with a genuine interest in the definition of anti-semitism, and to see whether I agreed with it or not, but it seems even the slightest hint of dissent leads to accusations of ‘Jew bashing’.

I am not anti-semetic. I do not dislike Jewish people. I disagree with Israel’s actions and have done so for a long time. I have Jewish and Muslim family. I wish a peace could be achieved but don’t have much hope that it will happen.

Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 02:14

nc14 · 19/10/2023 02:02

I only recall someone hypothesising if Israelis/Jews acted in similar ways to Nazis then it would be appropriate to make that comparison. I don’t recall anyone calling Israelis/Jews Nazis. If I had seen that I would have taken issue with it too. I’m not sure though why you should only take issue with racist terms (by your definition) but not also offensive terms. I’m sure there are Nazis out there but I don’t think it’s fair to brand ‘a large number’ of a population as Nazis. I agree with you people do not know what Palestinians feel or think, except perhaps the one poster here who claims to.

I did come here with a genuine interest in the definition of anti-semitism, and to see whether I agreed with it or not, but it seems even the slightest hint of dissent leads to accusations of ‘Jew bashing’.

I am not anti-semetic. I do not dislike Jewish people. I disagree with Israel’s actions and have done so for a long time. I have Jewish and Muslim family. I wish a peace could be achieved but don’t have much hope that it will happen.

Edited

Well there's not really any point discussing it beyond saying that there are other ways to describe Israel rather than comparing them to Nazis.

The key features of Nazism were:

Belief in racial supremacy over all else in the world
Wanting to dominate / conquer the world and make it all Aryan
Extreme anti-Semitism
Disdain for liberalism
Disdain for democracy / one party state
No the rule of law
No human rights
Highly authoritarian regime with political opposition / dissent silenced
No free media
Strict state control over education and culture

Israel, for all it's awfulness, does not really resemble Nazism. It's lazy wording, and as I said I think deliberately designed to hurt Jews.

People must be aware on at least some level that most Jews have lost great grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. Certainly in my case, my Grandfather and three others were the only two to survive the Holocaust.

We found records of some of them in Dachau and have yet to find the others.

Surely people understand, using this comparison is needless minimising of the Holocaust and very hurtful.

OP posts:
Original poster
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 02:19

Freshstart78 · 19/10/2023 02:02

I see my kids in them too.

I find myself welling up about it at times.

If only mothers ruled the world. I am not saying we would be perfect. There’s a few world leaders I would happily slip a poison tea. But I think we would be a bit more measured about things and try not to cause outright destruction and suffering.

I am hoping things will change. This war and Ukraine have been different. So many people have smart phones and internet that shifts power from ideologies and governments to the individual. Everyone said outrage about Ukraine was because they were white. I questioned that but reserved judgement. Having seen the unanimous response to Gazan suffering I know the difference was the smart phone and the inability of media to shield what’s really happening.

I think you're completely right. Women would have been better at ruling the world.

I was on Twitter last night and saw some videos I wish I hadn't seen. I am going to stay off for a while as it was too horrible.

But while I think that the reaction of Israel cannot be excused, it shouldn't mean Jewish people here need to pay for it.

My children are really suffering with this crap. My son wants to come home early from university to get away from it.

People need to learn that they can support Palestinian children, and do good in the world without needing to kick Jews while they do it.

OP posts:
Trulywonderful · 19/10/2023 02:23

You have more confidence in the ability people to understand this than me. Yes some understand why calling a Jew a nazi is wrong. Whereas I genuinely think some people really are just copying what they hear others say or what they see on social media. They are just too lazy or something to figure out that it wrong. Mind you work with teenagers, some are very good and understand these things. Some just can't be bothered to think about this stuff so copy whatever someone else says

Ger1atricMillennial · 19/10/2023 02:29

Hi @LemonyTicket

You sound informed on this subject, and I was wondering, what do you think would have to happen in your opinion for there to be peace in the region?