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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
IvorTheEngineDriver · 19/10/2023 12:31

I disagree with your statement OP that this list is "widely accepted".

Tandora · 19/10/2023 12:41

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 11:19

All pan Arab nations to accept Israel exists and isn't going anywhere.

Moderate governance of Palestinian territories with an end to radicalisation of young people, terrorism and extremism.

Enormous focus on building positive lives and thriving communities for Palestinian people; jobs, basic freedoms, great education and so on.

Focus from pan Arab nations on resolving refugee situation and ensuring there are not refugees left as perpetual refugees.

Israel to move back within its legal borders, follow international law to the letter and promote positive relations.

It might be then that Jewish people could live in Gaza or the west Bank, like Arabs do in Israel - but not as occupiers.

All that would require a lot of commitment and effort and I think it's very unlikely to happen.

I find it interesting that you have listed 5 action points, in the manner and order you have.

Points 1-4 relate to actions to be taken , primarily, by “pan-Arab nations” and Palestinians. Several of this points are v diffuse/ general and arguably hard to achieve, especially in the immediate term : e.g. exactly how does one “end radicalisation” (the uk gov would like to know!) or “build positive lives and thriving comminities”. Of course a wonderful goal but difficult / unclear how to action.

Only your last point, 5 , relates to action that could be taken by the government of Israel. (Other than building positive relations which is more long term) These actions are specific, actionable , and could be initiated immediately .

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:45

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 12:24

The point is, I don't have the data. Have you?

No, of course I don't have the data, because I'm not the one claiming that a large number of Palestinians are Nazis.

Perhaps you could ask the poster who did state that to back up their statement with some verifiable data instead of posting a photo of a shop.

Hold them to the same level of accountability as you hold others on this thread.

Why should I?

If their statement bothered you, you go ahead and have that argument. No one's stopping you, are they?

I've got zero interest in debating how many Palestinian citizens may or may not be Nazis. If you have - have at it.

This thread is about it being antisemitic to compare Israel to Nazis.

But you're unable to let us have that aren't you? So instead of listening, or accepting, there's page after page of whining about how you should be able to.

And now, extensive whining that apparently Jews aren't defending other groups against the same aaccusations.

It just boils some people's piss massively to show the slightest consideration towards antisemitism.

We've actually segued here from demanding tp Jews that you're allowed to call Israel Nazis in spite of no factual similarity between ideologies and the clear fact the Nazis objective was to exterminate Jews...to you now demanding a Jew holds another Jew "to account" for saying another group, who are led by people who also want to exterminate Jews, are Nazis.

I need a cup of tea.

OP posts:
nc14 · 19/10/2023 12:50

@LemonyTicket We did go ahead and have that argument and you accused us of detailing the thread and Jew bashing.

ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 12:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:54

Tandora · 19/10/2023 12:41

I find it interesting that you have listed 5 action points, in the manner and order you have.

Points 1-4 relate to actions to be taken , primarily, by “pan-Arab nations” and Palestinians. Several of this points are v diffuse/ general and arguably hard to achieve, especially in the immediate term : e.g. exactly how does one “end radicalisation” (the uk gov would like to know!) or “build positive lives and thriving comminities”. Of course a wonderful goal but difficult / unclear how to action.

Only your last point, 5 , relates to action that could be taken by the government of Israel. (Other than building positive relations which is more long term) These actions are specific, actionable , and could be initiated immediately .

It's not "interesting" at all. Israel can't begin promoting positive relationships until the other things happen.

OP posts:
Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 12:57

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:54

It's not "interesting" at all. Israel can't begin promoting positive relationships until the other things happen.

Why?

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:59

nc14 · 19/10/2023 12:50

@LemonyTicket We did go ahead and have that argument and you accused us of detailing the thread and Jew bashing.

No. I accused you of doing that by showing up here to start going on about ethnic cleansing and apartheid. I've not asked anyone not to challenge the Nazi statement made. In fact people have done for pages. The part I object to is those trying to demand I do too.

OP posts:
AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:01

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:30

Nonsense. A group of you have showed up to derail (as you do on any and every thread related to Jews) and twist it around from being a thread explaining what antisemitism is, to being yet another thread attacking Israel, and when people respond to you, you claim it's them who started it.

You've got really no interest in understanding antisemitism. Just in acting out your hostility.

I have every interest in understanding antisemitism and found your opening post very informative. Not least because it confirmed that I'm not antisemetic.

Other posts in this thread have helped me understand the subject better, including a number of yours.

I'm deeply interested in antisemetism and the whys and wherefores. Yes, I understand on an intellectual level, but deep in my gut, my heart, I just don't comprehend this human trait of othering people. It's obviously deep rooted in modern human history as a survival mechanism. There's the ongoing 'tribal' teaching of it so young people are brainwashed into believing it, but as individuals, as living, breathing people today, I just don't viscerally get why a person would hate another person because they're Jewish. I can't square that circle, as they say.

So it's particularly galling when, after someone disagrees with you, your reaction is to accuse them of being hostile, of derailing the thread, of taking a pop at Jews, of bashing them.

(Talking of derailing, who posted two or three paragraphs about the trans debate? What's that got to do with antisemetism? Follow your own advice OP! I'm joking by the way because I understand that on a discussion thread about one topic other topics will naturally come into the conversation.)

You're a historian. Don't people disagree with you every day? Don't they question? Are you not constantly having to defend what you say and your academic beliefs? This is the nature of being a historian surely?

Maybe they don't, because you come across on this thread as someone used to saying their piece but having no one robustly question what you've said. And when they do, you don't like it and try and shut them down by making accusations towards them about their motives for asking questions and sharing their thoughts.

nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:03

@LemonyTicket Again, someone said Israel being an apartheid state was a radical view and I said it isn’t as a lot of NGOs believe this.

Tandora · 19/10/2023 13:03

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:54

It's not "interesting" at all. Israel can't begin promoting positive relationships until the other things happen.

the points I was referring to as specific and actionable were the “move back within its legal borders and follow international law”.
Building more positive relations is obviously a longer term, more diffuse goal and harder to define how it could be achieved.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:04

Gruntsandgroans · 19/10/2023 12:57

Why?

Because you can't begin peaceful renegotiation if the other side will not accept the existence of your state and focus all their energy on blowing you and your citizens up.

And you cannot begin discussing who lives where whilst people on each side are subject to different rules.

There's no reason Palestinian Arabs can't live in the Jewish ruled state of Israel with equal rights under law. Actually they can and do make up 20% of the population.

So surely the same should apply and Palestinian territories should welcome a 20% Jewish population with similar equal rights.

Things can't be all one way.

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

They are a tour de force!

OP posts:
AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:05

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 12:45

Why should I?

If their statement bothered you, you go ahead and have that argument. No one's stopping you, are they?

I've got zero interest in debating how many Palestinian citizens may or may not be Nazis. If you have - have at it.

This thread is about it being antisemitic to compare Israel to Nazis.

But you're unable to let us have that aren't you? So instead of listening, or accepting, there's page after page of whining about how you should be able to.

And now, extensive whining that apparently Jews aren't defending other groups against the same aaccusations.

It just boils some people's piss massively to show the slightest consideration towards antisemitism.

We've actually segued here from demanding tp Jews that you're allowed to call Israel Nazis in spite of no factual similarity between ideologies and the clear fact the Nazis objective was to exterminate Jews...to you now demanding a Jew holds another Jew "to account" for saying another group, who are led by people who also want to exterminate Jews, are Nazis.

I need a cup of tea.

Why should I?

Because you are the one who misquoted them to have a go at someone else.

Because you are the one picking apart everyone else's posts, why not this posters?

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

How offensive this is.

Do not question or you will be accused of antisemetic apologism.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:13

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:01

I have every interest in understanding antisemitism and found your opening post very informative. Not least because it confirmed that I'm not antisemetic.

Other posts in this thread have helped me understand the subject better, including a number of yours.

I'm deeply interested in antisemetism and the whys and wherefores. Yes, I understand on an intellectual level, but deep in my gut, my heart, I just don't comprehend this human trait of othering people. It's obviously deep rooted in modern human history as a survival mechanism. There's the ongoing 'tribal' teaching of it so young people are brainwashed into believing it, but as individuals, as living, breathing people today, I just don't viscerally get why a person would hate another person because they're Jewish. I can't square that circle, as they say.

So it's particularly galling when, after someone disagrees with you, your reaction is to accuse them of being hostile, of derailing the thread, of taking a pop at Jews, of bashing them.

(Talking of derailing, who posted two or three paragraphs about the trans debate? What's that got to do with antisemetism? Follow your own advice OP! I'm joking by the way because I understand that on a discussion thread about one topic other topics will naturally come into the conversation.)

You're a historian. Don't people disagree with you every day? Don't they question? Are you not constantly having to defend what you say and your academic beliefs? This is the nature of being a historian surely?

Maybe they don't, because you come across on this thread as someone used to saying their piece but having no one robustly question what you've said. And when they do, you don't like it and try and shut them down by making accusations towards them about their motives for asking questions and sharing their thoughts.

Don't be do disingenuous. I mentioned the trans debate as an analogy.

What's going on here is that I've posted a thread in response to many people saying they don't know what antisemitism is, and several people have honed in on it immediately to:

Express being pissed of it was even shared
Call it "rubbish"
Slag off Israel with inflammatory statements

As I've been dealing for a week with the Israel bashing brigade, I'm aware its a lot of the sake users who've been doing it all week. A larger portion have likely name changed.

None of this is "disagreeing" with me.

It's rubbishing the definition of antisemitism as agreed by almost every nation and institution in the country (and world).

It's targeting of Jewish people who dare speak up with pretty obvious hostility and prejudice.

It's endless. It's relentless. And there is nothing academic about it.

OP posts:
ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 13:14

Where did I say do not question or you will be accused of anti semitism? Do not put words in my mouth.

How very offensive you are, being deliberately obtuse. Some of the comments here were anti-Semitic. It is not offensive to identify that.

ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 13:17

And that was to @AFieldGuideToTrees

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:18

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:05

Why should I?

Because you are the one who misquoted them to have a go at someone else.

Because you are the one picking apart everyone else's posts, why not this posters?

I didnt misquote them. I didn't quote them AT ALL.

I summarised the conversation which was

Group A: Israel are Nazis
Person B: actually Palestinians are
Group A: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU

That's what happened.

I didn't QUOTE her as saying they were "more" Nazi. I relayed the above situation as it being the entire point she was making.

She didn't show up to a random thread accusing Palestinians of being Nazis. She was responding to the accusations that Israelis are.

Ffs.

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:20

Tandora · 19/10/2023 13:03

the points I was referring to as specific and actionable were the “move back within its legal borders and follow international law”.
Building more positive relations is obviously a longer term, more diffuse goal and harder to define how it could be achieved.

You're missing a key point.

My suggested agreement for peace would include negotiating Jews to live as equal citizens of Palestinian territories.

Like they do in Israel.

That way everyone can live in areas they want to live in. Just legally and peacefully

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:22

nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:03

@LemonyTicket Again, someone said Israel being an apartheid state was a radical view and I said it isn’t as a lot of NGOs believe this.

And argued for several posts about ethnic cleansing and apartheid. It was blatant Israel bashing and attempts to derail.

OP posts:
Itisyourturntowashthebath · 19/10/2023 13:24

This might be a good time to point out that many countries employ an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion.
These commentators are used by government departments to scour the internet for bad news - and then negate it.
They post comments on websites and forums that spin bad news into good in an attempt to shape public opinion.

China has the 50 cent party, both sides in the current conflict have their own versions. There is every reason to believe that propagandists are on MN.

LemonyTicket · 19/10/2023 13:26

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 19/10/2023 13:24

This might be a good time to point out that many countries employ an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion.
These commentators are used by government departments to scour the internet for bad news - and then negate it.
They post comments on websites and forums that spin bad news into good in an attempt to shape public opinion.

China has the 50 cent party, both sides in the current conflict have their own versions. There is every reason to believe that propagandists are on MN.

That is a very good point.

OP posts:
nc14 · 19/10/2023 13:26

@LemonyTicket Because others argued it wasn’t. But you don’t take issue with them derailing the thread, only those who disagree with them. It is not Jew or Israel bashing to disagree with what Israel is doing or label it with terms a person feels is appropriate by their definition. I also don’t see how it falls into your categories of anti-semitism.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 19/10/2023 13:28

ChalkWitch · 19/10/2023 13:14

Where did I say do not question or you will be accused of anti semitism? Do not put words in my mouth.

How very offensive you are, being deliberately obtuse. Some of the comments here were anti-Semitic. It is not offensive to identify that.

Please direct me to where I said "do not question or you will be accused of anti semitism"?

Misreading what I did say.